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PB -PC Challenger 2009 - 2014 Covering 2.5 HP diesel

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  #21  
Old 20-10-17
Quinno Quinno is offline
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The ones I know extended length, KYB and Tough Dog are 517mm extended, my old Ultimate Suspension was 525mm and, as above, Bilstein 535mm. I agree with OJ that 525mm is spot on, maybe 530 max. A lot of springs are 400mm free length, but for the longer shock of 525mm or more I believe 410mm free length spring is better. I don't really pay much attention to what they call +150kg or HD etc. as I want to know lb/sq in, of which my King Spring is progressive 170-225lb/sq in (from memory I think). Would like to know others because not many manufacturers will hand over technical data.
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1992 NH GLX, 2.5L TD. Tough Dog lift 2", Alpine Engineering IFS mod kit, DieselGas, Piranha dual battery, ARB bar with Warn M8000, Outlander roof rack & boat rollers, 10ft tinny with 6hp, GME TX4000 UHF & Electophone SSB CB, custom fridge slide & false floor, window tint & Airflow snorkel.
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  #22  
Old 20-10-17
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old Jack old Jack is offline
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Your on the money Quinno!
I have been collecting as much info as I can on Challenger springs and have been working on the math formula so if I have the spring rates, free heights, steel grade used and heat treatment, then I can calculate the expected ride height at given rear axle weights. Linear rate coils are easier to do the math on but progressive rate coils are a much more complex calculation. What we really need is spring makers to provide load to spring compression graphs but nobody does these. I have all the ARB specs and most of the King spring specs (ARB publish spring rates and free lengths in their export OME data and Kings have been really good at providing me with info by request.) Once I have it worked out I will contact Lovells, Dobinsons and other suppliers for specifications.

My formulas are very much work inprogress and I am almost ready with rear spring calculator on ARB and King linear rate rear coils, however the IFS on the front suspension and progressive rate on the rear adds further complications to the calculations.

OJ.
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2011 PB Base White Auto, Smartbar, Cooper STMaxx LT245/75/16, HR TB, 3 x Bushskinz, +40mm std front Lovells, +50mm rear EHDVR Lovells, Bilsteins, Peddars 5899 bump stops, Windcheater rack, GME UHF, Custom alloy drawer system inc. 30lt Engel & 2 x 30 AH LiFePo batteries + elec controls, Tailgate hi-lift/long struts, Nightbreaker +130LB & Phillips +100 HB, Lightforce 20" single row driving beam LED lightbar, Scanguage II, torque convertor lockup indicator.
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  #23  
Old 20-10-17
Quinno Quinno is offline
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Thanks OJ. I keep doing my research, because while I am happy with King Spring and KYB Skorched, it is still a bit harsh on fast small bumps on road (terrible roads are common in south west Victoria). At least it's better than the Lovell and Ultimate combo I did have. That was so hard it would jump the car sideways on bumps. Even ended in the ditch a few times at mere 20km/hr on gravel roads.
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1992 NH GLX, 2.5L TD. Tough Dog lift 2", Alpine Engineering IFS mod kit, DieselGas, Piranha dual battery, ARB bar with Warn M8000, Outlander roof rack & boat rollers, 10ft tinny with 6hp, GME TX4000 UHF & Electophone SSB CB, custom fridge slide & false floor, window tint & Airflow snorkel.
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  #24  
Old 20-10-17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quinno View Post
Thanks OJ. I keep doing my research, because while I am happy with King Spring and KYB Skorched, it is still a bit harsh on fast small bumps on road (terrible roads are common in south west Victoria). At least it's better than the Lovell and Ultimate combo I did have. That was so hard it would jump the car sideways on bumps. Even ended in the ditch a few times at mere 20km/hr on gravel roads.
Hi Quinno, are you still running a Gen2 or a Challenger PA or PB/PC?
Either way the 3 link, coil, live axle rear suspension is the same but is the front coilover or torsion bar?

OJ.
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2011 PB Base White Auto, Smartbar, Cooper STMaxx LT245/75/16, HR TB, 3 x Bushskinz, +40mm std front Lovells, +50mm rear EHDVR Lovells, Bilsteins, Peddars 5899 bump stops, Windcheater rack, GME UHF, Custom alloy drawer system inc. 30lt Engel & 2 x 30 AH LiFePo batteries + elec controls, Tailgate hi-lift/long struts, Nightbreaker +130LB & Phillips +100 HB, Lightforce 20" single row driving beam LED lightbar, Scanguage II, torque convertor lockup indicator.
MM4x4 Lockup Mate.
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  #25  
Old 20-10-17
Quinno Quinno is offline
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Still got NH Pajero and PB Challenger. The NH is torsion front and i haven't yet put rear springs across onto Challenger for trial and error. I can't recall part number of the Tough Dog spring on my NH but it's 420mm free length. At a guess it might be 200lb/sq in.
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1992 NH GLX, 2.5L TD. Tough Dog lift 2", Alpine Engineering IFS mod kit, DieselGas, Piranha dual battery, ARB bar with Warn M8000, Outlander roof rack & boat rollers, 10ft tinny with 6hp, GME TX4000 UHF & Electophone SSB CB, custom fridge slide & false floor, window tint & Airflow snorkel.
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  #26  
Old 20-10-17
Giddyup Giddyup is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quinno View Post
Thanks OJ. I keep doing my research, because while I am happy with King Spring and KYB Skorched, it is still a bit harsh on fast small bumps on road (terrible roads are common in south west Victoria). At least it's better than the Lovell and Ultimate combo I did have. That was so hard it would jump the car sideways on bumps. Even ended in the ditch a few times at mere 20km/hr on gravel roads.
Funny you mention that. I put in some dobinson mrr shocks about 20 000km ago and they feel exactly like you described. Really harsh on the small fast compression stuff. Hard to drive on dirt and corrugations without dropping tyre pressures. Particularly when the car is empty. I don't run a lot of weight even when loaded with gear, so maybe the valving is more suited to heavier cars. I don't think I'd recommend them to anyone.
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  #27  
Old 20-10-17
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Hi OJ

Thanks for that info.

Very happy with my extra heavy duty rear setup as far as springs go. Indeed, it is much more complaint with a lighter load than I could have ever hope for. The custom springs use the variable wire diameter to get good free height (around 420mm) and not be overly tall with a lighter load. Their scragged height is less than the bumpstops so they do not bind, hence very gentle impacts on a hard hit. They matched in with the Pedder 80 series rubber cones are near perfect for heavy loads. Indeed, the shock loadings would be likely a lot less than a lighter vehicle running standard suspension, or one where the springs bind out. I got no harsh thumps despite stuffing up my speeds a few times.

Chatted to Kings asking what spring rate I should valve for and the answer was very quick (as usual, indeed very impressed by Kings) as in the 250-300lb range. No wonder the standard valving in the Bilsteins feels underdone as it is likely in the 180-220 range.

On roughness of ride that is a factor of damper design. A great dampener should allow for the rapid compression of the shock and then controlled release. The ideal explained to be a multiple winner of Targa was the vehicle should feel that it is not increasing in height. Over control rebound will result in a vehicle getting lower after each bump in a series. Lack of control means the vehicle starts feeling taller and bouncing. Over controlled compression will give a harsh ride as the dampener, not the spring, is taking the impact.

Ok, course higher frequency corrugations are a different beast to long travel "whoopty doo's". On corrugations the Bilsteins fare much better than the latter. On the Simpson DooSo did not enjoy the triple humped dunes. Ok on the first "hollow" but by number three he was almost bouncing taking the rear wheels off the ground. After that treatment he lost the fine control when unloaded so he lurches a bit on cornering. Not excessively, but no where near refined as when the springs were lighter or newer. At 600mm rear EBH DooSo feels very tall and needs a good dampener to control that height.

When shelling out money for dampeners you are paying for their ability to resist heat and valving that attempts to workout what to do. The so called progressive dampening is designed to valve differently for smaller high frequency impacts to large slower impacts. Chatting to more than a few suspension experts and found Bilsteins are the leaders in progressive valving. Koni is better at looking after the oil to stop it frothing, reason dampeners fade.

Extreme aftermarket dampeners like DMS use high quality aluminium and remote oil reservoirs to dissipate the heat buildup. The bigger the bore (assuming the rod size does not increase) means greater oil capacity and is an approach used by the Koni 88/90 series and Tough Dog big bore dampeners. Trouble is clearance. A remote reservoir dampener can fit assuming it can find a place. Also, extreme dampeners can be adjusted, generally on rebound but some on compression. In many the two are linked, but in the ultra high end either can be adjusted independently. Only trouble with that is you need really to be a top class racing driver to quickly do this or a lot of kilometres of trial by error.

So looks like the Bilsteins did a reasonable job given they are 80,000kms old and dealing with a spring rate that unlikely was considered when valved.

Though I am tempted by the King approach as the DMS have demonstrated price is long forgotten and quality is remembered. They just do not fade out and feel as good now 80,000kms on as new. The trouble is i am just too far away to be a crash test dummy. If they had a pre-packed solution then I would go for it.

Cheers
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2014 PC Challenger, manual, factory tow-bar, factory front diff protector, TJM inter-cooler plate, Bushskinz manual transmission protection plate, ProRack S16 roof racks, front elocker, Drummond Motor Sport front struts, custom 16mm King rear springs with Bilstein Dampeners, Buzz Rack Runner 3 bike platform, Eclipse Nav head unit, GME TX3800BW UHF, 16x8 CSA Raptor rims, 265/75R16 Maxxis MT-762, orToyo AT/2 265/70R16 Triton rims, BFGoodrich 235/85/R16 Triton rims, or Factory tyres and rims.
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  #28  
Old 20-10-17
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Hi Giddy,

What tyre pressures, what brand/model and size tyres are you running?

OJ.
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2011 PB Base White Auto, Smartbar, Cooper STMaxx LT245/75/16, HR TB, 3 x Bushskinz, +40mm std front Lovells, +50mm rear EHDVR Lovells, Bilsteins, Peddars 5899 bump stops, Windcheater rack, GME UHF, Custom alloy drawer system inc. 30lt Engel & 2 x 30 AH LiFePo batteries + elec controls, Tailgate hi-lift/long struts, Nightbreaker +130LB & Phillips +100 HB, Lightforce 20" single row driving beam LED lightbar, Scanguage II, torque convertor lockup indicator.
MM4x4 Lockup Mate.
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  #29  
Old 20-10-17
Ent Ent is offline
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I have to chuckle at times. Checked out if Dobinsons MRR were available for a Challenger. Was told no they are only intended for real 4x4s. Which strangely they consider a Triton to be a real 4x4, and the original Pajero as well.

What is a Challenger? Err? Triton chassis back to the rear door, then rear end following the design of the first coil sprung Pajeros to the point the springs are the same. Comes standard with rear diff lock might be a hint as well. Also, the PB/PC was targeted at countries like India, Russia, Africa and rather surprisingly made it to Australia. Yeap, definitely a shopping trolley to pick up the groceries in Siberia

Those pesky series one Landrovers must be shopping trolleys as well as they used the motor out of a a Rover car which we all know are luxury town cars. Yeap, Toyotas built the Snowy, err maybe one or two were used the vast bulk of 4x4s were Landrover. Heck, never let facts stand in the way of prejudice
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2014 PC Challenger, manual, factory tow-bar, factory front diff protector, TJM inter-cooler plate, Bushskinz manual transmission protection plate, ProRack S16 roof racks, front elocker, Drummond Motor Sport front struts, custom 16mm King rear springs with Bilstein Dampeners, Buzz Rack Runner 3 bike platform, Eclipse Nav head unit, GME TX3800BW UHF, 16x8 CSA Raptor rims, 265/75R16 Maxxis MT-762, orToyo AT/2 265/70R16 Triton rims, BFGoodrich 235/85/R16 Triton rims, or Factory tyres and rims.

Last edited by Ent; 20-10-17 at 03:32 PM.
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  #30  
Old 20-10-17
Giddyup Giddyup is offline
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Hi Giddy,

What tyre pressures, what brand/model and size tyres are you running?

OJ.
Lt265/70r16 toyo opat ii. Normally around 40psi. Light truck tyre and highish pressure isn't going to help the ride. Pretty sure the rear springs are made for more weight too. It's ok with ~150kg in the back, but empty is too firm. Though I think it's probably more about the valving, it has pretty good control on the larger dips with slower compression.
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