Pajero 4WD Club of Victoria Public Forum Pajero 4WD Club of Victoria Public Forum

Go Back   Pajero 4WD Club of Victoria Public Forum > Vehicles > Challenger/ Pajero Sport > PB -PC Challenger 2009 - 2014

PB -PC Challenger 2009 - 2014 Covering 2.5 HP diesel

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #81  
Old 05-10-17
PC Challenger's Avatar
PC Challenger PC Challenger is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Earth
Posts: 374
Default

yer i ditched the billstein front shocks. run dobinsons MRR.

good ride. went softer spring. and adjusted seat to get same hieght.

only good thing about billstien. are there rear shocks are longer then stock
__________________
Stock PC Challenger
Reply With Quote
  #82  
Old 06-11-17
bmurray2250 bmurray2250 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 93
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by old Jack View Post
It would be great if you could measure your front EBH and then jack a front wheel clear of the ground and measure the centre wheel hub to under guard (EBH) again. The 20mm shorter shocker on the front equates to about 40mm of suspension travel and this has got me concerned that the shocker maybe too short. What part number shocker has been used/

OJ.

Hi OJ

Sorry for the delay. Measured 60cm from centre of wheel to guard sitting normally. 65cm when jacked up. 50mm movement in up travel
Reply With Quote
  #83  
Old 06-11-17
old Jack's Avatar
old Jack old Jack is offline
Valued Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Adelaide
Posts: 5,689
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmurray2250 View Post
Hi OJ

Sorry for the delay. Measured 60cm from centre of wheel to guard sitting normally. 65cm when jacked up. 50mm movement in up travel
Thanks BM,

Front EBH of 600mm and droop of 650mm is greater than I have seen, I wonder why?
Are the small shark fin droop stops fitted to the underside if the upper control arm?
What part number is on the Bilstein strut?
Are left and right sides the same?
When the car is parked on level and flat ground, how much gap is there between the droop stop and the chassis protrusion?

OJ.
__________________
2011 PB Base White Auto, Smartbar, Cooper STMaxx LT245/75/16, HR TB, 3 x Bushskinz, front +40mm Dobinson , rear +50mm EHDVR Lovells, Dobinson MT struts and shockers, Peddars 5899 cone springs, Windcheater rack, GME UHF, Custom alloy drawer system inc. 30lt Engel & 2 x 30 AH LiFePo batteries + elec controls, Tailgate hi-lift/long struts, Nightbreaker +130LB & Phillips +100 HB, Lightforce 20" single row driving beam LED lightbar, Scanguage II.
MM4x4 Lockup Mate.
Reply With Quote
  #84  
Old 22-06-18
old Jack's Avatar
old Jack old Jack is offline
Valued Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Adelaide
Posts: 5,689
Default

A final update and closure (I hope) to my ongoing failure of front Bilstein struts when fitted with Lovells coils.

Quick recap, 3 strut failures in 90,000kms. $ $ $

I had initially thought the problem was only caused by the Lovells coils not being ground flat on the top of the coil so when the strut is assembled the coil puts a slight sidewards loading on the strut shaft which then caused the shocker seal to wear prematurely and score one side of the shaft.

However after removing and disassembling the strut assemblies, testing spring rates and then testing another 3 different coils in the car, I am confident that the standard duty raised Lovells coils I had fitted had too higher a spring rate so rather than the spring compressing the strut was flexing as it already had a sidewards preload. There was significant wear on the bottom bushes of the struts even the strut that was only 30,000km old. I decided to go for Dobinson coils and Mono-tube (no remote reservoir) struts, but after 2 false starts, the first being too high and to hard and the second being too low and soft I ended up with a taller coil with a softer spring rate. Yes it does sound like a Goldilocks story!

The result is an increase in front EBH from 565mm to 570mm using a much softer spring even though it is the same wire diameter but 1 extra turn and a longer free length. The strut has a similar compression dampening rate to the Bilstein but a slgnificantly firmer rebound rate. The results are completely different and there are some pros and some cons.

Pros;
1. An increase in EBH, only 5mm but it really is the maximum I was prepared to go to.
2. Much more comfortable ride on bitumen and on corrugated dirt roads, small bump response/comfort has been greatly improved.
3. Less undesired activation of the ASTC system, I think it is got something to do with the G sensor not being shocked by impact loads.

Cons;
1. Softer spring rate has meant that if I drive as hard in difficult off road conditions I find the front suspension bottoms out. I have to either accept this compromise and slow down or look for different front compression bump stops that activate earlier and are more progressive.

I also changed to rear shockers to Dobinson MT (no remote reservoir) as the Bilsteins had done 100,000kms of hard work, as I am always near, at or above GVM and with the custom EHDVR Lovells coils the Bilsteins were always under dampened in the rebound in some conditions. The Dobinson's are about double the rebound rate so the rear coils are very nicely controlled in most circumstances.
BUT, there is a compromise!
The Dobinsons have a shorter extended length 525mm vs 535mm of the Bilsteins and this combined with a stronger rebound rate, means the suspension is slower to react over severe suspension travel at speed like climbing sand dune wombat holes, so it is possible to run out of rear wheel travel and lift a rear wheel more easily.

4.000kms of off road/outback touring including a Simpson crossing at GVM +150kg and 2,000kms of bitumen and highway driving and I am learning to appreciate the new suspension dynamics. Hopefully I have put an end to my premature front strut failures.

OJ.
__________________
2011 PB Base White Auto, Smartbar, Cooper STMaxx LT245/75/16, HR TB, 3 x Bushskinz, front +40mm Dobinson , rear +50mm EHDVR Lovells, Dobinson MT struts and shockers, Peddars 5899 cone springs, Windcheater rack, GME UHF, Custom alloy drawer system inc. 30lt Engel & 2 x 30 AH LiFePo batteries + elec controls, Tailgate hi-lift/long struts, Nightbreaker +130LB & Phillips +100 HB, Lightforce 20" single row driving beam LED lightbar, Scanguage II.
MM4x4 Lockup Mate.

Last edited by old Jack; 23-06-18 at 12:53 PM. Reason: Spelling and grammar corrections
Reply With Quote
  #85  
Old 22-06-18
bigdave's Avatar
bigdave bigdave is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Adelaide SA
Posts: 176
Default

Nice bit of work OJ. Can you find a way to make it an R&D tax deduction?
__________________
Cheers,
Bigdave

2010 PB Manual, Icom 440 Remote UHF, 130AH AGM in rear, Tekonsha Primus IQ Brake Controller, Bridgestone D697s, HR Towbar, Kings KCRS-23 springs / Pedders 5899. Single axle 18' Caravan with muddies & good clearance - ATM 2.5T/Ball weight 250kg
Reply With Quote
  #86  
Old 22-06-18
Ent Ent is offline
Valued Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Tasmania
Posts: 1,591
Default

Hi OJ

Glad you have hopefully sorted out the front end. I agree with you on the rear Bilsteins not damping enough. I have to get mine revalved for a higher spring rate.

Still very impressed by the Drummond Motor Sport front end.

The customer dual wire rate rear springs with the 80 series bump stops works extremely well.

If I can fix the dampening rate of the rear dampener I will be a happy camper. The rate is ok for highway and light gravel driving but in the Simpson dunes it started to pogo. Learnt that you just have to take it slow to avoid the dreaded double and triple humped dunes.

DooSo been retired from commuting duty so has not been driven much lately. Need to fix a few things like trailer lights not working. The heavy mud in the failed Simpson run is starting to catchup with all our vehicles. Brotherís needed new air filter breather for his tank and the 4WD indicator switch died due to mud and water ingress. Another vehicle has strange electrical issues as well.

Must plan another trip. DooSo more a long range cruiser than off-road assault vehicle, but dam impressive if he has to be off-road.
__________________
2014 PC Challenger, manual, factory tow-bar, factory front diff protector, TJM inter-cooler plate, Bushskinz manual transmission protection plate, ProRack S16 roof racks, front elocker, Drummond Motor Sport front struts, custom 16mm King rear springs with Bilstein Dampeners, Buzz Rack Runner 3 bike platform, Eclipse Nav head unit, GME TX3800BW UHF, 16x8 CSA Raptor rims, 265/75R16 Maxxis MT-762, orToyo AT/2 265/70R16 Triton rims, BFGoodrich 235/85/R16 Triton rims, or Factory tyres and rims.
Reply With Quote
  #87  
Old 23-06-18
littleriver's Avatar
littleriver littleriver is offline
Valued Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Queensland
Posts: 3,062
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by old Jack View Post
A final update and closure (I hope) to my ongoing failure of front Bilstein struts when fitted with Lovells coils.

Quick recap, 3 strut failures in 90,000kms. $ $ $

I had initially thought the problem was only caused by the Lovells coils not being ground flat on the top of the coil so when the strut is assembled the coil puts a slight sidewards loading on the strut shaft which then caused the shocker seal to wear prematurely and score one Sid of the shaft.

However after removing and disassembling the strut assemblies, testing spring rates and then testing another 3 different coils in the car, I am confident that the standard duty raised Lovells coils I had fitted had too higher a spring rate so rather than the spring compressing the strut was flexing as it already had a sidewards preload. There was significant wear on the bottom bushes of the struts even the strut that was only 30,000km old. I decided to go for Dobinson coils and Mono-tube (no remote reservoir) struts, but after 2 false starts, the first being too high and to hard and the second being too low and soft I ended up with a taller coil with a softer spring rate. Yes it does sound like a Goldilocks story!

The result is an increase in front EBH from 565mm to 570mm using a much softer spring even though it isthe same wire diameter but 1 extra turn and a longer free length. The strut has a similar compression dampening rate to the Bilstein but a slgnificantly firmer rebound rate. The results are completely different and there are some pros and some cons.

Pros;
1. An increase in EBH, only 5mm but it really is the maximum I was prepared to go to.
2. Much more comfortable ride on bitumen and on corrugated dirt roads, small bump response/comfort has been greatly improved.
3. Less undesired activation of the ASTC system, I think it is got something to do with the G sensor not being shocked by impact loads.

Cons;
1. Softer spring rate has meant that if I drive as hard in difficult off road conditions I find the front suspension bottoms out. I have to either accept this compromise and slow down or look for different front compression bump stops that activate earlier and are more progressive.

I also changed to rear shockers to Dobinson MT (no remote reservoir) as the Bilsteins had done 100,000kms of hard work, as I am always near, at or above GVM and with the custom EHDVR Lovells coils the Bilsteins were always under dampened in the rebound in dome conditions. The Dobinson's are about double the rebound rate so the rear coils are very nicely controlled in most circumstances.
BUT, there is a compromise!
The Dobinsons have a shorter extended length 525mm vs 535mm of the Bilsteins and this combined with a stronger rebound rate, means the suspension is slower to react over severe suspension travel at speed like climbing sane dune wombat holes, so it is possible to run out of rear wheel travel and lift a rear wheel more easily.

4.000kms of off road/outback touring including a Simpson crossing at GVM +150kg and 2,000kms of bitumen and highway driving and I am learning to appreciate the new suspension dynamics. Hopefully I have put an end to my premature front strut failures.

OJ.
put it out there for Oztec shocks ... life time warranty ... ....

oh well next time

....
__________________
2012 PB Challenger LS (Manual) - OZtec shocks front & rear with King Springs (lift 2 inch) , 22 inch front #plate light bar, roof racks & basket, Bridgestone Duelers 697 LT A/T,Dash cam, 2 way radio 80 channel, Ipod connected via glove box usb, Waeco cf50, Garmin gps (with topo), Opticoat + paint protection, Nilrust proofing, Roosystems Ecu Remap
Reply With Quote
  #88  
Old 23-06-18
old Jack's Avatar
old Jack old Jack is offline
Valued Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Adelaide
Posts: 5,689
Default

Replies in reverse order;

LR, I did look closely at OzTec shockers and spoke to Steve Shepard at length. Their quality is without question and a great warranty, at under $600 for a pair of OzTec front struts with King coils fully assembled and delivered they are the best value for money. A great upgrade over factory suspension for the average recreational 4wder, they will transform the way the Challenger rides and handles both on and off road. However if you want to do hours of endless corrugations at high speed carrying max axle loads, the twin tube shockers dispite being much larger than factory shockers and better valved are simply not up to the task I require.

Ent, I looked at DMS very closely and ended up with "paralysis by analysis" and I left my order too late and could not get them in time for the Simpson trip. Busy work schedule, helping Pajero 12 prepare for his first remote trip, multiple suspension changes on forum members vehicles, testing of Lockup Mate, resulted in my preparations being last minute and something I would highly recommend not be done.
Having different manufacturers of the coils and struts was not desirable after my Bilstein/Lovells experience. Having local backup was critical as it also took 3 different coils trials on vehicle to get the front suspension to an acceptable level of performance. At $1000 a pair they were a good last minute replacement and have learnt a lot more in the process. I will do a separate thread about this subject.
Rear suspension Pogoing! Yes I too have long suffered this in continuos sand dune country at GVM+150kg rear axle weights, the standard Bilsteins have been too lightly valved for the custom Lovells EHDVR coils I use. The Dobinson Mono Tubes are a huge improvement over the Bisteins in this regard, for an off the shelf shocker at $250 a piece you cannot go wrong. They are not perfect but they are very very good.

Big Dave, R&D tax deductions, yes that would great but this is my hobby so I expect to cost me something. Australia is facing increasing debt levels which will cripple the next generations so I am prepared to forgo a few dollars and not add to the financial woes of this great country.

OJ.
__________________
2011 PB Base White Auto, Smartbar, Cooper STMaxx LT245/75/16, HR TB, 3 x Bushskinz, front +40mm Dobinson , rear +50mm EHDVR Lovells, Dobinson MT struts and shockers, Peddars 5899 cone springs, Windcheater rack, GME UHF, Custom alloy drawer system inc. 30lt Engel & 2 x 30 AH LiFePo batteries + elec controls, Tailgate hi-lift/long struts, Nightbreaker +130LB & Phillips +100 HB, Lightforce 20" single row driving beam LED lightbar, Scanguage II.
MM4x4 Lockup Mate.
Reply With Quote
  #89  
Old 26-06-18
amec amec is offline
Valued Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Wamberal
Posts: 511
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by old Jack View Post
Hi Challenger Owners,

Spoken to Kierion at Bushskinz and he and his suppliers opinion is that the standard duty Lovells spring is putting a side load on the spring because the top of the spring is not ground flat and it does not sit in the tophat seat squarely and this is flexing the strut. Suggesting changing over to King coils.

Spoke to Lovell's and they have had no reported problems with their struts when fitted with their springs.

Spoke to Brendan at Ultimate, he uses Lovell's springs in their kits. He has not seen this problem before and thinks it maybe either the shocker topping or bottoming out (I have since checked this and they are

OJ.
I had a shock fail after approx 40k km. Scored badly on one side and leaking. I disassembled the shock and the bush it runs through was equally scored. I didnt check it for straightness though. Replaced with another Bilsten for now. I have Lovells HD springs

Next time i might look to another brand. The OME suspenders i put in my Prado 90 series are still strong 110k km later.
__________________
PC Challenger. TJM bar and winch. Dual battery with Redarc dc-dc, Redarc trailer brake controller. USB outlets everywhere, Uniden UH5060 UHF, $0.45 EGR mod. Lovells springs and Bilstein shocks For 50mm lift. LED light bar. MM 4X4 lock up switch. Airtec snorkel, Toyo Open Country AT2, Bushskinz skid plates x3 + side steps.
Reply With Quote
  #90  
Old 26-06-18
NJV6 NJV6 is offline
Valued Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 442
Default

Hi OJ,
A great lot of sleuth work, time and money there to get your results.

Have you looked at the Hydraulic bump stops that could be used to suit your application? I have experienced them once and they were tremendous and are adjustable. The downside was the constant tap tap tapping they made as they made contact but Im sure that could be easily overcome. Haven't looking under the vehicle though to see if its feasible though!

Onto my next question, you love the ride the current combo gives, especially in the front. The lovell/bilstein combo in the front of Pajeros ride nicely on bumps but with small roading imperfections they struggle as the spring doesn't compress to absorb any of it. Any comment on the dobinson set up for this scenario? having said this, the lovell/bilstein combo is at least as good as factory, probably better. With either of the setups, you simply cannot rock the vehicle.

Any comment?
__________________
1994 NJ SWB, 3.5 Manual, 285/75/16 KL71's, Twin ARB air lockers, XD9000 winch, custom bar.
1991 NH LWB, 3.9 V8, trayback, solid front axle, Toyota hi mount winch
2011 NT GLX DiD, 3.2 Manual, 265/65 BFG KO2's, SPV EGR, Lovells SD rear, HD front, Bilsteins, Custom underbody protection, Safari Snorkel, and loads of zip ties in the dash...
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
80 Series LC front strut spacers Rosscoe59 Generation 3 Pajero 6 22-06-16 11:26 PM
Front strut problem (Dobinsons) Catchin Jack Generation 3 Pajero 4 02-12-13 09:57 AM
Front strut length Jimbo2 Where the rubber hits the road. 8 27-04-13 10:59 PM
Front Strut Assembly JFella Generation 4-2 Pajero 11 21-03-10 10:00 AM
Front Spring/Strut Choice - What is everyone using??? Ranger J Generation 3 Pajero 55 02-10-09 09:27 AM


All times are GMT +10. The time now is 04:22 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.