Trans and coolant temp

[BruceandBobbi]

If the coolant temp and trans temp are equal or within a few degrees of each other first thing in the morning you are probably ok.

There was talk on here about if you are using F-50 for the equation try F-40 or vise versa.

[Ian H]

I've started to wonder if the Torque Pro app is measuring the trans temp properly at all. I've noticed that at even at relatively high temps that once the converter locks up the measured or reported temps drop significantly within seconds. I remember way back when i set up the app that there was a question somewhere about whether the formula given was for the Aisin or Jatco transmission. Might have to do a little more digging. Anyone have a quick link for the correct setup for my NX?

It's normal that the temp drops quickly. When you think about it, the temp you are measuring is from the outlet pipe and this is higher than the temp of the oil in the pan when the TC isn't locked. So as soon as it locks, it's not heating the oil anymore and that cooler oil comes from the pan and out of the pipe almost immediately.

At least, that's how I understand it to be.

I think the talk about F-40 or F-50 was for an Ultra Gauge, I'm not sure if that also relates to Torque.

[BruceandBobbi]

https://www2.pajeroclub.com.au/forum/showpost.php?p=587526&postcount=3

[m_and_m]

There’s a lot of confusion around how to setup your device for transmission readings.
I wrote a guide to help.
In simple terms, JATCO = f-40, ASIN trans = f-50
see here

[Two Emms]

Auto "lockup"

This is my first post on the forum so be gentle with me.
I am the proud owner of a MY16 GLS NX which I have now had for almost a year.
The Paj was bought using knowledge gleaned from this forum, so thank you all!

Apologies in advance for what may seem a very basic question but I can't seem to work out when my transmission is 'locked' in a given gear. I have a lot of years driving manual fourbys on a lot of tracks but my NX is my first auto 4x4. Is it just a 'seat of the pants' feel?

Is it as simple as the trans being locked in a given gear at a certain speed when in 'auto' and locked in the selected gear when in 'sport mode' ? I can swing a spanner but only have a basic understanding of toque converters etc.

The reason I ask is that I drag a small camper around the high country as much as possible (but not nearly enough) and have read here about the dangers of an overheated transmission. The trailer is not very heavy, less than 750 kg, but some of the climbs can be long or steep or both.
The NX was a big investment for me so I want it to last forever (ok well at least a long time)

I do have the Torque pro app and I may be nearly intelligent enough to figure out how to monitor the temp. ( the instructions are on the forum)

[old Jack]

This is my first post on the forum so be gentle with me.
I am the proud owner of a MY16 GLS NX which I have now had for almost a year.
The Paj was bought using knowledge gleaned from this forum, so thank you all!

Apologies in advance for what may seem a very basic question but I can't seem to work out when my transmission is 'locked' in a given gear. I have a lot of years driving manual fourbys on a lot of tracks but my NX is my first auto 4x4. Is it just a 'seat of the pants' feel?

Is it as simple as the trans being locked in a given gear at a certain speed when in 'auto' and locked in the selected gear when in 'sport mode' ? I can swing a spanner but only have a basic understanding of toque converters etc.

The reason I ask is that I drag a small camper around the high country as much as possible (but not nearly enough) and have read here about the dangers of an overheated transmission. The trailer is not very heavy, less than 750 kg, but some of the climbs can be long or steep or both.
The NX was a big investment for me so I want it to last forever (ok well at least a long time)

I do have the Torque pro app and I may be nearly intelligent enough to figure out how to monitor the temp. ( the instructions are on the forum)

The torque convertor will only lock up in 3rd, 4th and 5th gears when conditions are correct. You can calculate speed vs rpm in a certain gear and if your rpm increases and not your speed then the TC is slipping. You can monitor the Torque Convertor Lockup solenoid voltage but you need a 3 wire digital readout volt meter, this is a voltmeter that uses a separate 12volt supply. This is better than watching ATF temperatures because by the time you see a temperature rise the TC has been slipping and the heat has already started to build up in the ATF. The factory AT ECU program unlocks the TC when coasting downhill so the ATF is not circulated through the ATF cooler, this means the ATF temp will rise when climbing a hill and not cool down when going down hill so when you go up the next hill the ATF starts off at an elevated temperature and as the cycle repeats the ATF just jp gets hotter and hotter.

Far better to stop the ATF from getting hot in the first place by overriding the factory AT ECU with a TC lockup mod.

Best way to know what is happening and to keep the ATF temperatures under control is by using a Lockup Mate or Auto Mate from MM4x4, these have been especially designed and extensively tested for Pajero, Challenger and Triton. These kits do not override or bypass any of the factory protection modes in fact they add extra protection to your transmission.
Marshall is the brains behind MM4x4 and is a long time Pajero owner and forum member. I worked extensively with Marshall when testing the Challenger/Triton Lockup and Auto Mate for the Jatco auto and have clocked up over 40,000kms with these units.
It would have been cheaper and quicker for me to buy another lockup kit but I was never really happy that they bypassed most of the factory protection modes, they lacked the application of mechanical sympathy principles.

OJ.

[Having Fun]

It's normal that the temp drops quickly. When you think about it, the temp you are measuring is from the outlet pipe and this is higher than the temp of the oil in the pan when the TC isn't locked. So as soon as it locks, it's not heating the oil anymore and that cooler oil comes from the pan and out of the pipe almost immediately.

At least, that's how I understand it to be.

I think the talk about F-40 or F-50 was for an Ultra Gauge, I'm not sure if that also relates to Torque.

Except gen1 is saying that the temps drop within seconds. That sounds highly improbable.

I'm wondering if maybe his coolant temp sensor may have started to de-laminate and is throwing strange signals to the ECU?

[Two Emms]

Auto lockup

Thanks Jack

I understand your explanation. The idea that heated ATF is not circulated through the cooler is a little concerning but makes sense. TC unlocked, no fluid being pumped through the cooler.

From now on it looks like I will be watching ATF temps (on Torque pro) to get an idea whether or not I should invest in a mod.

Which lockup system are you referring to in the last sentence when you said ;

It would have been cheaper and quicker for me to buy another lockup kit but I was never really happy that they bypassed most of the factory protection modes, they lacked the application of mechanical sympathy principles.

[old Jack]

I was referring to the MM4x4 Lockup Mate and Auto Mate products. 2 & 1/2years ago these products did not exist but there were other TC lockup kits on the market, but I was never really satisfied with how they functioned.

So after a few conversations with Marshall, who had previously made his own basic TC lockup for his NP Pajero, he set about designing a smarter TC lockup controller that did not require the user to determine when to switch it on or off and did not bypass the factory AT ECU protection functions.

Lockup Mate was developed so it only functioned when all the conditions such as ATF temperature, vehicle speed, engine rpm, engine load and accelerator pedal positions were correct and safe for a TC lockup. This meant the driver could not abuse the torque convertor, which had been an issue with other TC lockup kits. Lockup Mate essentially converted the automatic transmission into a clutchless manual when the sports shift was used but had all the smart protections and did not bypass any factory protections.
Lockup Mate resulted in lower ATF temperatures, lower engine coolant and air inlet temperatures, improved engine braking and a increase in fuel economy.

After the success of Lockup Mate, the next step was to develop an even smarter AT ECU controller that also worked fully automatically, so you didn't have to use the sports shift, that controlled the torque convertor lockup and changed the gear up and down shift points better than the factory program. Auto Mate was developed and achieved this and more. Recently there has also been a free software upgrade that allows the user to offset the program parameters to compensate for driver preference and change in tyre diameters.

Each product for each vehicle transmission type took hundreds of hours of programing and testing, and 10's of thousands of kms of road testing under all conditions. I am not aware of any other lockup kits that have had this much develop time and money spent on them. I do not have a financial interest in MM4x4 but I was heavily involved in the testing of the Challenger/Triton Lockup/Auto Mates for the Jatco autos so I got a better lockup kit than what I could have purchased,in return for my time, fuel and vechile use.

For the complete story, look at threads in the section of the forum;

https://www2.pajeroclub.com.au/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=125

OJ.

[Two Emms]

Thanks Jack for a really clear explanation of what these mods do. I had previously studied them on the forum and even visited the website but now I can get my head around how they actually function.
This makes it clearer which will be best for my circumstances.

[m_and_m]

Except gen1 is saying that the temps drop within seconds. That sounds highly improbable.

Actually, this is sort of true. Most people read the temperature at the sensor which is at the outlet of torque converter. This can be between 10-30 degrees hotter than the oil in the pan.

The moment the torque converter is locked up, it stops creating heat. The oil in the pan then starts to flush through torque converter, and in about 15-20 seconds all the hot oil has been removed and the sensor is reading the pan oil temperature.

You can see this is action on my video about auto-mate in the pajero. The Ultra gauge is displaying both pan temp and the torque converter outlet temp. You know the torque converter is locked if both temperatures are the same. Once it lockes, you can see the outlet temp drop rapidly. When unlocked, it rises by 10-30 degrees.
Video link

[m_and_m]

Thanks Jack for a really clear explanation of what these mods do. I had previously studied them on the forum and even visited the website but now I can get my head around how they actually function.
This makes it clearer which will be best for my circumstances.

This might be interesting for you to read, including when the transmission temp is too hot.

https://www2.pajeroclub.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=65510

Even though you are towing a fairly light camper, you'll find it won't lockup in 5th much when on the highway, and it will easily unlock if it does. The best way to keep it locked is using 4th gear (SPORT mode), however you'll rev into the high 2000's. That's why an auto-mate or lockup-mate is so popular.

For now, my suggestion is to set yourself up to monitor your transmission temps (at both the torque converter outlet and in the pan) using an OBD2 reader (Ultra-gauge, scanguage II, or TorquePro with ELM327 bluetooth device). When they both read the same temperature, you know the torque converter is locked. At least then you know what's going on with the transmission and how hot it's getting.

Cheers,
Marshall

[BruceandBobbi]

For now, my suggestion is to set yourself up to monitor your transmission temps (at both the torque converter outlet and in the pan) using an OBD2 reader (Ultra-gauge, scanguage II, or TorquePro with ELM327 bluetooth device).


Marshall I have the trans temp showing on Torque Pro but have no idea which one. Do you have the parameters for both so I can can show both?

I am using The GM/Chrysler F40 for the NS. Is this for pan temp or convertor temp?

[m_and_m]

For now, my suggestion is to set yourself up to monitor your transmission temps (at both the torque converter outlet and in the pan) using an OBD2 reader (Ultra-gauge, scanguage II, or TorquePro with ELM327 bluetooth device).


Marshall I have the trans temp showing on Torque Pro but have no idea which one. Do you have the parameters for both so I can can show both?

I am using The GM/Chrysler F40 for the NS. Is this for pan temp or convertor temp?

The NS and Challenger have the JATCO transmission which only has only 1 temperature sensor, which measures the pan temp. So you’d see very slow temp. changes.
It’s worth noting that the oil temp out of the torque converter will be 10-30 degrees more than this reading. 125decC is about the limit before the oil starts to degrade. Hence once the pan them gets to 100-105degC, you’d want to take action to let it cool down.

The NT+ has the AISIN trans, which has the two temp sensors. Monitoring the other sensor at the output of the torque converter makes it easier to know when you’ve got the 125 deg C point.

[BruceandBobbi]

As usual Marshall extremely helpful.

Thank you.