MY16 Challenger

[old Jack]

Turbo lag; the Challenger is fitted with quite a large turbo for a 2.5 litre and this combined with the electronic throttle and engine ECU programming cause the turbo lag despite having a variable inlet turbo. The manual is far worse and this is a common problem with most Asian CRD engines off idle, so the clutch gets a real workout off road and towing in steep terrain. This is the major reason why I brought an auto transmission.

In regards to engine size, there is a major push in many countries to encourage smaller engine sizes so registration costs are based on capacity rather than the number of cylinders. A Euro CRD of 2 litre capacity will produce the same if not more kW and Nm than our Challeger HP engine, couple this to a 7 or 8 speed auto and the drive experience is incredible.

Australia is a small market and MM is a global car manufacturer so the trend will be towards smaller high tech engines with fancy auto boxes. If you want cubic inches and serious foot pounds then it will only be one source in the world and that will be the USA. Eventually even the USA will go the EURO way as have the Asian car manufacturers. Alternatively you could look at cars from Russia and Eastern Europeon countries were the technology is still behind the rest of the world.

cheers, old Jack.

[Stoneman]

Turbo lag; the Challenger is fitted with quite a large turbo for a 2.5 litre and this combined with the electronic throttle and engine ECU programming cause the turbo lag despite having a variable inlet turbo. The manual is far worse and this is a common problem with most Asian CRD engines off idle, so the clutch gets a real workout off road and towing in steep terrain. This is the major reason why I brought an auto transmission.

I have driven the auto triton and the challenger with your autos

Best thing I did was buy the manual

I would rather suffer from a bit of lag than have the everyday issues you guys have in driveablity

But to say there far worse is not true and exaggerated IMO

Haven't seen as many complaints with the manuals as the autos other than the diffs

[spot01]

I never understood why MML changed from the 3.2 in the ML to the 2.5 in the MN, for the OZ market at least.

I had 2 ML GLX/R's with the 3.2, auto & Super Select 4WD. Whilst the old 4 speed auto was a limiting factor, the 3.2 had the oomph to overcome it, without much lag. IMO, they should have kept the 3.2 & added a 5 speed auto for the MN.

I find it amazing how experienced companies like MML & MMAL don't make the most of their existing assets and sometimes go backwards.

[fester]

I never understood why MML changed from the 3.2 in the ML to the 2.5 in the MN, for the OZ market at least.

Because again we are a negligible market and MMA like Nissan Australia have very little pulling power. WE just get what the main world market is asking for with maybe a couple of little concessions. Look at Nissan screaming for a big diesel in their new Patrol which is V8 petrol only. At least they have managed to retain their old model lines for those wanting simplier and cheaper technology with the Y61 Patrol and the D22 Navara. At least for now. Mind you they are still stuck with the hopeless 3.0l 4 cylinder in the Patrol when they should have at least the Euro V6 that was a premium model in the Navara/Pathfinder.

Gov't reg's also come into play. Jeep gave us their stonking V6 diesels for a few years now but the new model lost the good factory recovery points because we got the Euro model with their tight frontal protection rules. Not the US model which everyone screamed for.

[old Jack]

I have driven the auto triton and the challenger with your autos

Best thing I did was buy the manual

I would rather suffer from a bit of lag than have the everyday issues you guys have in driveablity

But to say there far worse is not true and exaggerated IMO

Haven't seen as many complaints with the manuals as the autos other than the diffs

Before moving to a CRD I had a 89 EFI Jackaroo, off road and particularly in the sand it was more drivable than many modern V6 and CRD manuals. I am in a 4wd club so I get to drive a broad cross section of 4wds when I do training an on trips, I continually noticed that manual transmissions were not up to the tasks for my requirements, of mid size 4wd.

It took me 12 frustrating months of retraining myself to change my driving style on and off road so I can get the best out of the Challenger, I am a better trainer for having done this as I now know the restrictions modern 4wd have when applying "old school" driver training. Not many people have a requirement to do a low 1st forward key-start whilst climbing a 35 degree rocky track. I would much prefer a Challenger Auto than a Manual in the above off road situation.

Times are changing, we have 2 options;
1. Change with it and try to influence the direction.
2. Be a luddite and resist change, only to find ourselves being left behind and playing catchup. I stressed out when I brought the Jackaroo because it had an engine management computer rather than "old school" mechanical injection or carbies.

cheers, old Jack.

[Tone13]

Until 4years ago, I lived in the UK for nearly ten years and in that time saw one triton. A friend of mine had bought one and until then I didn't even think that they were available in the UK. I think the main markets for Triton and Challenger are the Asian markets. I spent a little time in Asia as well and you don't see many people towing big toys at all hence why I think that big engines are not a priority.
We have an addiction to big toys in Australia and obviously require bigger engines to tow them. As we are a tiny market (especially for Challenger) it just wouldn't be viable for Australia to get its own engines..

As far as I have read, the MY16 Triton will come with the option of the new 2.4 or the carry over 2.5. It seems strange to have an option between two similar sizes.

In terms of the Manual v Auto, I have the auto and it's my first ever auto. I didn't think I work like it but I'm loving it, especially off road but then I don't tow anything heavy. A friend has a manual Triton and I found it to be a bit lethargic especially if needing to change gear going up hill.

[900canoes]

Times are changing

Why have other manufacturers gone to the larger engines? Mitsi already have a smaller engined model in the Outlander.

[260DET]

Good discussion blokes, old Jack as usual is on the money
As far as turbo lag goes, I believe that some small capacity auto diesels are not a real problem to drive which prompted my earlier comment about other factors which contribute to it. My information is that both the VW Amarok and the Freelander 2 are pretty good with a much better programmed auto, of course they still have some lag but to the owners it's not an issue.

[spot01]

I agree re the small OZ market, but I think I am correct in saying Triton is MMAL's largest selling vehicle in OZ, including the cars, so I would have thought it is very important to them? BTW, they already had the proven 3.2 & then dropped it?

Companies that don't understand their market &/or won't give the market what it wants & instead supply what the company wants often end up in trouble &/or sell less than they might have, eg, Falcon, Commodore, Magna/380, both current Patrols, etc.

[260DET]

We can't forget emission standards in all this, a lot of older engines would not comply.

[Ent]

The simple fix would be dump the Pajero 3.2 and its auto in the Triton/Challenger and give the Pajero a stonking 3.5V6 diesel with eight speed auto. Mitsubishi have always struggled to make a good vehicle a great vehicle. To do this some bold thinking is required. Alternatively an european approach with twin turbos.

But as mentioned the Patrol has a terrible engine for people that tow, with kilometres per turbo a factor of running costs. The 1.9 litre unit in the Suzuki Grand Vatra is awful to drive, so snatchy.

Jeep again as mentioned stuff up by first adding every accessory they can then whacking a price premium for the Trailhawk pack plus pushing petrol. Why not a stripped down diesel version with all the good off-road gear?

The problem is the marketing "experts" that occupy highly paid position have not a clue in understanding 4wd. They chase things like three tonne towing but do not give a stuff in having gearing to match, let alone rear springs to carry the 300 kilogram down weight. The 200 series Landcruiser is a huge vehicle on the outside but very poor carrying capacity for its size (base weight to GVM) and rather cramped inside for all its bulk.

On the auto versus manual in the Challenger, I was very tempted by an auto until I drove one. It hanged in gear way past any sensible point that sent vibrations through the car. It then would "panic" and jump down gears. You really noticed the missing 50nm when driving typical up and down Tassie roads. My friend that I was with used even more colourful language to describe it. As for an auto going into self protect mode on a highway!!!!!! Does not that shout out they have stuffed up?

By contrast the manual is very good except for not having a low enough low in both high and low range. A vehicle with three tonne towing capacity should have a low gear that you can skip in normal driving when not towing. The Challenger needs 1st gear and heavy right foot on steep hills to avoid stalling even when not towing something.

Actually, in off-road driving the lack of holding power in low low is more a problem than its climbing performance, as you get use to hanging at 1500rpm with a foot over the clutch pedal for a quick dab, so a two foot driving style as you do not need the brake. And the auto is worst downhill due to higher gearing, convertor slip, with the added "feature" of jumping to second.

Had Mitsubishi put in a better auto, and or, a well thought out five or six speed manual much of the criticism would go away. In fact a Challenger with a 50:1 low low would get almost a cult following. In high range if the lower low could be kept at current low low then threading through tight spaces would be a breeze.

But in the wet west coast roads the AWD feature is a masterpiece of engineering that makes the Challenger such a capable cruiser. The older 3 litre BT50/Ranger mob often ignore factory advice and use high range 4wd on sealed roads and above 100kmph to get some equivalent feeling of sure footness.

Just a bit of thought with gearing is all that is needed to make full use of the current 2.5. Looks like Mitsubishi are heading this way with the new model. What Ford does with the Everest will make or break Mitsubishi sales volumes. If Ford go with a low price base model with good 4wd stuff then the Challenger has lost its reason for being.

[Stoneman]

Before moving to a CRD I had a 89 EFI Jackaroo, off road and particularly in the sand it was more drivable than many modern V6 and CRD manuals. I am in a 4wd club so I get to drive a broad cross section of 4wds when I do training an on trips, I continually noticed that manual transmissions were not up to the tasks for my requirements, of mid size 4wd.

It took me 12 frustrating months of retraining myself to change my driving style on and off road so I can get the best out of the Challenger, I am a better trainer for having done this as I now know the restrictions modern 4wd have when applying "old school" driver training. Not many people have a requirement to do a low 1st forward key-start whilst climbing a 35 degree rocky track. I would much prefer a Challenger Auto than a Manual in the above off road situation.

Times are changing, we have 2 options;
1. Change with it and try to influence the direction.
2. Be a luddite and resist change, only to find ourselves being left behind and playing catchup. I stressed out when I brought the Jackaroo because it had an engine management computer rather than "old school" mechanical injection or carbies.

cheers, old Jack.

OJ,

I agree we would of made or purchase for different reason and explains our different expectations, I just disagree that the manual is far worse than the auto as a general perception. Not to say in certain circumstances one would out perform over the other.

I, like your self am not scared of the ecu as I believe the public has been led to believe that they are a highly intelligent part of the vehicle.
That said it's just something new and if you are willing to take the time its not hard to understand how it works. Apart from temp sensors and the like its all still mechanical to me just controlled electronically so when you manipulate a sensor you are in a sense just turning a screw and altering at what time something functions and or flow etc,

"Times are changing" and I feel we the customer have in away let it happen by accepting poor quality, Maybe caused by the government but we are the one that can change it because if we keep accepting it by adapting our driving or spending countless hours trying to modify things to make a sometimes arguable difference things will only continue to get worse

I agree with your people power comment all the way

I to have been forced to change my driving style to suite the vehicle, That just never used to be a problem in the past....

Didn't mean to rant and I hope I made sense

I get a bit opinionated at times, don't take me the wrong way

[old Jack]

No offence taken and no worries Stoneman.

I too get a dose of OMD (Old Mans Disease), unfortunately we are being dragged kicking and screaming into modern day motoring.

I am sure within the next 15 years we will see a commercially available 4wd that has a 1 litre CRD engine that runs at the the same optiminum rpm connected to a DC generator that powers electric hub motors on each wheel and a small lithium battery pack or capacitors that store energy from regenerative braking.

All this technology is currently available but it has not been combined into a single 4wd yet! Ford in the USA started on this project about 5 years ago so it is coming.

In the interim I to, would be happy with the current 3.2 CRD and Aisin auto from the current Pajero in the MY16 Challenger, this would be a great combination with the current suspension and body, and 4.3:1 diffs, would sell like hot cakes, MMAL could even call it an "OJ Special".

Who wants to start an online petition?
I am happy to do the Australian testing and suspension tuning.

Vote 1 for an OJ Special OZ Edition Challenger.

cheers, old Jack

[260DET]

How about the 3 litre 4P10 engine then? It's a later design engine than the Pajero's 4M41T donk, used only in trucks to date I think but there seems no reason why it could not be used in a SUV.
After a few performance enhancing adjustments of course

[Peebee]

I think there is already a 3.2 litre version of the Challenger sold in India. It might have also have had the 4 speed box but I recall seeing a video test drive for a web car mag a few years ago. If my memory is correct that would mean a very big market is getting the Pajero motor.