Australia's most forgotten 4wd!

[Challenged1]

The Challenger is a very under rated car. Comfortable, affordable, reliable, is pretty easy to work on and I think the PB looks great. Yes, it could of been better from the factory but the same can be said for just about every car produced.

I still have a PA11 Challenger in the driveway. It has 264K on it and no doubt there is still plenty of life left in it yet. No rattles or squeaks and still drives very well. It's just no where near as comfortable to drive as the PB.

We had a 2009 LS PB Challenger that was well used. By that I mean it was driven every day for a 200km round trip to work and back and still took us where we wanted to go on weekends. The inlaws car died a couple of months back (Hyundai) so we gave them the Challenger. It had 320K on the clock and is still going strong. It even passed a NSW Blue Slip inspection first pass..... It needed a number plate globe!

The better half of me has a new 2019 Pajero Sport and she loves it..... I think it's more road oriented than the Challenger though. Still, she only uses for the drive to work and back. I love the motor in the PS. It seems to be much more refined and is a lot quieter than the 4D56 of the Challenger. Unfortunately I can't tamper with it yet as it is still under factory warranty. We have done an EGR (removable) cheat on it and that has made it even better on fuel, changes gear better and It's dropped 150rpm at 100kmh.

I now have a 2011 XLS Challenger and I can't see myself changing car anytime in the near future.
It only had 160K on it with full service records and I think I got a great buy. I've done EGR cheat, serviced all oils and filters and have just put new suspension on it.

Like most cars, if the maintenance is kept up with clean oil, clean air filter, clean fuel filter and importantly in the Challenger, replacing the timing belt on or before time, I can't see any reason why there isn't 500K + in the Challenger

[ron.dunn]

It's dropped 150rpm at 100kmh.

I think this is impossible. The speed at a given RPM is a function of your gearing.

[old Jack]

I think this is impossible. The speed at a given RPM is a function of your gearing.

Unless it is an automatic transmission and the torque convertor is unlocked, but this normally adds about 300rpm to 400rpm depending on the load.

OJ.

[Challenged1]

You might think it is impossible but that is just it....A thought.

I have the proof in the FACT that we have a Pajero Sport and a PB Challenger that both have the EGR resistor cheat. Both cars have dropped RPM at any given steady speed. At 100kmh both cars have gone from just under 2200rpm to just over 2000rpm and both cars hold gears much better. I'm not any type of genius on computerised cars but I'm guess that the computer feels cooler air going across the MAF sensor and re-calibrates the air/fuel mixture accordingly. As for the gears being more precise, I can only guess that the auto clutch thinks it is cooler also.

Try it before you THINK it isn't possible

[ron.dunn]

Try it before you THINK it isn't possible

I have a Munji cable. In fact, for reasons not related to this topic, I've just removed it.

I understand that you might believe what you are saying, but it is impossible.

Your engine is connected to your gearbox. Your gearbox has a fixed ratio of gears. The only way to change the speed of your vehicle at a given RPM is to physically change the gears. Put it another way, the only way to lower your RPM at a given speed is also to change the gears.

Let's just suppose that the cable made your engine run 200rpm slower. Unless you've pulled apart your gearbox and replaced its internals - which I strongly doubt you have done - it is simply not possible that your car can run its engine slower and deliver a higher speed.

There are two possibilities that might be misleading you. (1) The RPM is not reported directly from the engine, and is calculated in some way that is influenced by the cable. Unlikely. (2) The speed is not reported directly from the gearbox, and is calculated in some way that is influenced by the cable. Also unlikely.

You could eliminate both of these possibilities by using an accurate GPS to measure the speed. An OBDI reader might give a different view of RPM, but may still be influenced by [unlikely] calculations.

[old Jack]

After a bit more thinking and a bit of research I believe what “Challenged” has observed is highly likely to occur in the function of the automatic transmission of both the Challenger with the Jatco 5 speed and the Pajero Sport with the Aisin 8 speed autos.
Mitsubishi have been using PWM (Pulse Width Modulation) on their Auto trans computer controls for many years, basically it varies the percentage of torque convertor lockup from 70% to 99.6%, the AT ECU checks that this is happening at a certain time frequency, if it does not detect TC variance then it throws a fault code.
So the engine drive is never 100% connected to the gearbox, there is always some slip in the torque convertor.
This is why even with a “locked” torque convertor an automatic will never have the same fuel economy and engine braking that a manual transmission has.

OJ.

[ron.dunn]

That would be a 12% difference, Jack ... 200 rpm difference at 1700rpm.

That's simply not possible on a Pajero Sport.

I've got the Munji, on and off makes no difference to RPM. We're not talking about 20-30rpm that might make a sound difference, we're talking about four clearly identifiable tick marks on the tacho.

[old Jack]

That would be a 12% difference, Jack ... 200 rpm difference at 1700rpm.

That's simply not possible on a Pajero Sport.

I've got the Munji, on and off makes no difference to RPM. We're not talking about 20-30rpm that might make a sound difference, we're talking about two clearly identifiable tick marks on the tacho.

I have always been able to detect an engine pulse, rpm change when cruising at highway speed in my Challenger, I cannot detect an indicated rpm change on the dash display or on my Scanguage II but I can see a slight change in boost pressure on my Scangauge II. It could be the refresh rate used in the cars computers is slow/dampened so as not to display the rpm fluctuations, the only way to be sure would be to directly monitor the rpm sensor output voltage.
For several years I had a digital volt meter with an accuracy of 0.001 vdc connected to the Torque Convertor Lockup Solenoid. I could not only see when the Torque Convertor locked up but I could also see the Pulse Width Modulation voltage control of the TC Lockup Solenoid.

In the Workshop Manual for the Pajero Sport there are diagrams for the Torque Convertor Lockup Dampner Control Solenoid, these clearly show periods of partial TC lockup (slip area).
Here are the diagrams for 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th gears.

http://mmc-manuals.ru/manuals/pajero_sport_iii/online/Service_Manual/img/23/ACF02388AB00ENG.pdf

http://mmc-manuals.ru/manuals/pajero_sport_iii/online/Service_Manual/img/23/ACF02389AB00ENG.pdf

http://mmc-manuals.ru/manuals/pajero_sport_iii/online/Service_Manual/img/23/ACF02390AB00ENG.pdf

http://mmc-manuals.ru/manuals/pajero_sport_iii/online/Service_Manual/img/23/ACF02391AB00ENG.pdf

http://mmc-manuals.ru/manuals/pajero_sport_iii/online/Service_Manual/img/23/ACF02392AB00ENG.pdf

OJ.

[Challenged1]

I have a Munji cable. In fact, for reasons not related to this topic, I've just removed it.

I understand that you might believe what you are saying, but it is impossible.

Your engine is connected to your gearbox. Your gearbox has a fixed ratio of gears. The only way to change the speed of your vehicle at a given RPM is to physically change the gears. Put it another way, the only way to lower your RPM at a given speed is also to change the gears.

Let's just suppose that the cable made your engine run 200rpm slower. Unless you've pulled apart your gearbox and replaced its internals - which I strongly doubt you have done - it is simply not possible that your car can run its engine slower and deliver a higher speed.

There are two possibilities that might be misleading you. (1) The RPM is not reported directly from the engine, and is calculated in some way that is influenced by the cable. Unlikely. (2) The speed is not reported directly from the gearbox, and is calculated in some way that is influenced by the cable. Also unlikely.

You could eliminate both of these possibilities by using an accurate GPS to measure the speed. An OBDI reader might give a different view of RPM, but may still be influenced by [unlikely] calculations.

Well, it appears we have achieved the "impossible with 2 cars! We have used the Pajero Sports GLX in built GPS and my Garmin to measure the speed of both cars. Both GPS's read the same speed.

I have been around many things mechanical since I built my first billy cart with my Grandfather way back when. I have built my own motorcycles and cars and their engines. I do my own repairs and maintenance. I have a very good hands on understanding of many things mechanical and for you to tell me that what I am OBSERVING with my own eyes and that of my other half is wrong is just plain offensive. I fully understand how gearing works, but thanks for the lesson anyway. I am not trying to sell any particular product (are you?) but rather just telling my observation of a certain modification that has benefited our cars. If I thought it was a waste of time and money, why would we do the same mod to the new car?

I can tell you from seat of the pants experience that just about every engine on the planet (I don't know of 1 but you probably do) runs much better with cooler air. Isn't this what intercoolers and direct injection is all about? Problem is, the EGR valving is AFTER the intercooler and so negates the benefit of having it. They've even tried putting a cooler at the EGR valve. Wonder why Mitsubishi did that......

I drove a HR truck with trailer up and down the east coast for many years and I can tell you for fact that the engine always performed better in colder conditions. I could hear the change in the engines behavior (and loved the sound of the turbo whistling happily) and would usually be a gear better going up known hills. It would use much less fuel. It was my truck, I knew it very well (900,000 + k's together) and I always wanted cooler conditions for my trips. It was easier on my wallet and easier on the truck.

It's a well known fact that the EGR systems in modern diesel engines are an engine killing device that induces heat and contaminates oil and fuel. It also decreases performance by heating up the air going into the cylinders. Hot air means decreased performance and that means the engine has to work harder to achieve a desired speed. Conversely. a good performing engine does any desired speed much easier which equates to less weight on the right foot needed to do the same speed, particularly in an auto.

I also have a gut feeling that the autos clutch is engaging earlier and firmer with the ECU thinking it's cooler. Surely a clutch that isn't slipping would benefit the RPM's needed to do a given speed. I think you are choosing to ignore the fact that there is a centrifugal type clutch in our autos and not just a torque converter.

Just to reiterate, no where have I ever mentioned a brand of anything. I'm just passing on something that I know has benefited our cars. If you choose to not believe me, that's fine by me. It's your car and your money.

[Challenged1]

That would be a 12% difference, Jack ... 200 rpm difference at 1700rpm.

That's simply not possible on a Pajero Sport.

I've got the Munji, on and off makes no difference to RPM. We're not talking about 20-30rpm that might make a sound difference, we're talking about four clearly identifiable tick marks on the tacho.

No body but you has mentioned a 200 rpm decrease. And where you get 1700 RPM from is beyond me. I think you better read my post again. I clearly stated 150 RPM down from just below 2200 RPM to just above 2000 RPM at 100kmh. And by the way, It's TWO clearly identifiable tick marks on the PB....

[ron.dunn]

No body but you has mentioned a 200 rpm decrease.

That's odd, I could have sworn your post says, "At 100kmh both cars have gone from just under 2200rpm to just over 2000rpm", which suggests an approximate 200rpm decrease.

Still, that number doesn't add up. If you have a Pajero Sport, the RPM at 100km/h should be somewhere in the order of 1700-1750 in 8th gear. And I can't take a picture to prove it because I'm several thousand kms from my car at the moment, but the Pajero Sport tacho has 20 tick marks per 1000 rpm, so 200rpm would take 4 tick marks.

[Challenged1]

I'm not going to argue semantics with you. If you read 200RPM decrease when I clearly typed 150RPM decrease, then who am I to argue.....

I may be wrong about the RPM's in the PS. I have to check with the Mrs. I have never driven it since the EGR cheat and I can't personally recall the engine speed when I did drive it. I was just impressed with how much smoother and quieter the motor is compared to the PB's motor.

When the other half tells me it has dropped around 150RPM and is using way less fuel from wherever it was standard, I believe what she tells me. She's the one who drives it everyday.

I will let you know what engine speed the PS is at 100kmh.

[Challenged1]

Ok, so know I now where ron.dunn got 1700 RPM from. The PS runs at a lower engine speed than the PB Challenger. My apologies for any confusion.

After a quick drive in the Pajero Sport I can tell you that with the EGR cheat we have in the car, it sits at just below 1700rpm (guess 1650 - 1670) on the tacho at GPS 100KMH which is about 104KMH on the speedo. Cruise control was on and driving on a fairly flat stretch of road. There was a bit of side wind.

I don't have a scan gauge or any such device so I can only rely on the cars instruments and my eyes.

[Grimo82]

Although not a 4wd my 2012 PB Challenger 2wd would be even more forgotten than all your 4wd vehicles out there. I would even go so far as to suggest there are a lot of members of this forum who have never known of there existence. They are a great vehicle and I have every intention of keeping mine for many years to come.

my dads has a PB auto 2wd, whilst i have the PC 4wd, both EGR mod'd

I must say his 2wd goes like a rocket by comparison. Not sure on the weight difference etc but it feels much much more spritely and responsive.

He tows a 2.2T high roof van with it (has airbags) and is constantly amazed with the power and economy. even around town he is constantly in the 9L/100 where mine (bar/tyres/rack) is 11+

[old Jack]

my dads has a PB auto 2wd, whilst i have the PC 4wd, both EGR mod'd

I must say his 2wd goes like a rocket by comparison. Not sure on the weight difference etc but it feels much much more spritely and responsive.

He tows a 2.2T high roof van with it (has airbags) and is constantly amazed with the power and economy. even around town he is constantly in the 9L/100 where mine (bar/tyres/rack) is 11+

From memory the 2wd Challenger came with a lower diff ratio of 4.1 rather than the 3.917 ratio of the 4wd. I have also seen some 2wd that have 245/70R16 tyres fitted and these are 753mm in diameter rather than the 776mm diameter of the tyres fitted to the 4wd. This is part of reason why the 2wd performs better and uses less fuel, the 2wd is also lighter in weight.

I have always said the 4wd diff ratios of 3.917 are too high and 4.1 should have been fitted from the factory.

I am now running 813mm diameter tyres and the difference it has made over the 776mm diameter tyres is huge. The use of Lockup Mate and Auto Mate (at level 6) partially compensates for the change in gearing caused by the oversize tyres and recovers about 50% of the loss in performance and economy.

My options are to change tyres to a smaller diameter, change front and rear diff ratios, tune the engine. At the moment I am putting up with it until I have decided which way to move.

OJ.