Steep, rocky climbs - throttle control and gear selection

[BruceandBobbi]

I have a feeling the NS Manual is the same ratio as the NP Manual.

Here you go

Gen 3
2.8TDI = 4.90 5sp man
3.2 DID = 3.917 5sp auto or 4.10 for 5sp man

Gen 4 Petrol 4.300 3.2 Common Rail 3.917 . That's for auto or manual

[KiwiNTPajero]

the nissans and toyotas have a much bigger reduction gear in low range.My brothers landcruiser hardly moves in low low at idle!.The trainers should know that Pajeros have less reduction,and surely should have been aware that you were lugging the engine.They should have told you to try 1st!

[insect_eater]

Thanks OJ, Pajeromack, Axis, Aussie_Dan, and Bruceandbobbi,

I'm very much a drive by feel person, closely attuned to my machine. As it's new to me, I still need to learn how it reacts and feels under duress, and how it signals that it's limits are being reached. I've got a basic feel, but need to drive (and push it) more.

There's a skid pan driving course planned for next year, and i'm dead keen on that (35 years ago I learned to drive on bald cross-plies on a flat clover plain, holding third-gear power-slides for as long as I could, then catching an opposite slide - the best training I've ever done, i reckon....)

Good to know about the tall gearing, and that first is a completely reasonable option.

[insect_eater]

Thanks KiwiNTPajero - They didn't seem to know, and being unfamiliar with the vehicle maybe couldn't pick that it was lugging/struggling. It did tend to just go off the boil, then slowly die, or quickly die if there was a rock or ledge - but I could feel it happening

[Ent]

Friend went on work related 4x4 training which had as its challenge what to do if you run out of traction on a steep muddy climb. The idea is to stall the vehicle, select reverse take foot off clutch and kick the starter motor over and idle back down ideally not touching the brakes. The instructor noted my friend's Pajero and pointed out the gearing is to high to teach this technique so swapped him over to Patrol.

The transfer gearing is too high and suggesting second just stupid. I have fitted a 2.7 to replace the 1.95 transfer gear and the Challenger is now very good at idling up steep climbs. One thing I finally learnt was let it idle as if you try feathering the throttle the electronics get confused so when you lift off it stalls. It is almost that the Challenger has an anti stall feature on idle and I find this even in high range low.

The only issue is sometimes momentum is handy but some are more brave than others. I find switch diff locks in and let it idle up things. Weird though being stopped and all four wheels spinning. That is when to try momentum.

My gearing is now Patrol standard so I have two gears below high range low now. For a Patrol second low makes sense but not with a Mitsubishi product.

As for experts I still have not found any agreement on diff locks and if it is better to descend with them in or out. Without them pick up two wheels and you will bolt. But ABS brakes actually help if you chuck your foot on the brake and leave it in gear.

No doubt some will state switch them in and idle down if low low is low enough.

You would think 2.7 would be slow enough but in tricky stuff it appears positively frightening such are the mind games.

[insect_eater]

Thanks Ent some good suggestions there. I'll give the 'idle up in first' a try to see how I go.

I've just looked up some final drive ratios for the 80 series landcruisers - which was what I was supposed to be driving like in the training

1L = 46.6, 2L = 25.19, 3L = 15.23

So, as OJ says - compared to the Pajero of 1L = 31.15, and 2L = 17.7, second in the Pajero is closer to 3rd in the 80 series.

The 80 series also makes good torque from less than 1200, versus the Pajero from around 1800.

[erad]

For what it is worth, earlier this year, my wife & I went out to Blue Rag. We were there alone, not another vehicle anywhere near us. I had highway tyres only. No place for heroics - I just let my NW manual idle its way up and down the steep and shaly hills in first gear, low range. Barely touched the brakes. The car did the job brilliantly. OK - the track wasn't too bad - I think I only lifted a front wheel once, but it was a loose surface and we had no porblems at all. By the way, Blue Rag is an awesome place to go to....

[pajeromack]

The transfer gearing is too high and suggesting second just stupid. I have fitted a 2.7 to replace the 1.95 transfer gear and the Challenger is now very good at idling up steep climbs. One thing I finally learnt was let it idle as if you try feathering the throttle the electronics get confused so when you lift off it stalls. It is almost that the Challenger has an anti stall feature on idle and I find this even in high range low.

Yeah it seems like that instructor did not have a good understanding of gear ratios, and how they vary between manufacturers.

If you do this sort of stuff a lot you can fit custom reduction gears. These gears reduce wheel speed and increase wheel torque for a given engine RPM. It would certainly make these hill climbs a lot easier. Bear in mind though that reduction gears will increase torque through the driveline which could potentially exceed the design envelope. You still have to take care, lest you snap CVs or shear driveshafts. Biggest problem is that these sort of gears are normally very pricey at around $3k fitted.

Automatic vehicles have the here advantage because the torque converter provides further torque multiplication without risk of burning up a clutch.

Fortunately Mitsubishi have finally gotten the message and fitted a 2.566 low range as standard in the new Pajero Sport. Doesn't help us here though.

[Ent]

I am rather curious with the Pajero Sport if Mitsubishi upgraded the drive line components after the lower transfer gear as with the eight speed auto and improved motor plus now lower transfer gear they will be feeding through to the CVs and axles about the same amount of torque, if not more, as my 2.7 five speed PC manual will be doing.

I tend to take things easy as idling up at 700rpm means the motor is long way short of the 400nm torque at 1500-1800rpm.

The CVs definitely do not enjoy having the droop bump stops removed based on the "consumerable" CVs on mega raised Tritons with the droop stops removed.

I run standard tune on the motor but reading suggest the 2.5HP can have significantly more torque dragged out of it, but generally at 2000rpm plus. I would imagine a Pajero/Triton/Challenger in high state of tune with large lift would blow out of the water the factory design envelope with 3.15 transfer gears but generally they appear to hand together ok if treated with respect.

As written curious is the Sport has been beefed up or Mitsubishi has figured CVs at factory drive angles plus axles are up to the job.

[Axis]

Just re-read this thread after a trip up to Walhalla area last weekend. We have an NS manual and I was there with an MN triton Auto.

I had similar experiences to Ent in that I found 2nd low not low enough for steeper climbs however felt that 1st low was far easier to seemingly break traction - then I'd get traction control kicking in - had some serious beeping going on a few times.

By comparison on a few spots where I felt I struggled the Triton seemed to have no issues. That said, I also think I felt I struggled because there was a lot of traction control kicking in (Triton seemed to not use as much traction control). The Paj still climbed up and made those sections. On at least 2 of them I was first up and had to adjust my line and start over (also not fun in a manual).

Maybe I just need to get used to allowing traction control do its thing and be more sensitive on the throttle....

Cheers,
James

[Pickle]

Was checking out some vids on YouTube and found this with these guys in on the action.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUiBC64mP9U

[old Jack]

Was checking out some vids on YouTube and found this with these guys in on the action.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUiBC64mP9U

Thats some of the Adelaide Guys, M-&-M, Njswb and Twisted 32.

OJ.

[Pickle]

Thats some of the Adelaide Guys, M-&-M, Njswb and Twisted 32.

OJ.

Yeah, buggers are everywhere
Dave

[nj swb]

Yeah, buggers are everywhere
Dave

Yep - back again next week.

Can't help thinking another year of wear & tear will make that significantly more challenging.