Recovering from fishtail on gravel in 4WD

[Bundyk]

Yes the ESC will cut the power and apply the brakes, but it will apply different pressure to different wheels in order to control the slide. Using the foot brake just applies the same amount of presure to all the wheels (allowing for brake bias) and results in bad things happening.... well possibly anyway.

[GHendo]

Yes the ESC will cut the power and apply the brakes, but it will apply different pressure to different wheels in order to control the slide. Using the foot brake just applies the same amount of presure to all the wheels (allowing for brake bias) and results in bad things happening.... well possibly anyway.

Spot on ... and it does seem to work. ESC is totally different to hitting the brake pedal.

Geoff

[Quietguy]

[QUOTE=Goodsy;251293]With EBD, TC and ESC the Pajero loses some of it's fun on the loose stuff.
I turn the ESC off now and then to have a bit of fun.
...

Not fun for me. Driving at 100k on back country road in my NW was sudenly confronted by a b-double pulling out from dirt road on my left in order to turn right. So suddenly the road ahead became fully blocked in both lanes and the only escape possible was the narrow space between the right lane and the trees bordering that side of the road.

Scary in the extreme. Knowing, or at least thinking I was going to hit either the b-double cab or a tree I wanted to hit whichever as slow as possible so hit the brakes hard while swerving hard right to try and squeeze between the primemover and the trees. Amazingly to me the Paj slowed greatly while letting me steer through that very narrow gap. I cant doubt the benefit of those electronic gizmos that stopped me locking up etc.

David

[dimmo]

This is why you use stability control:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3m24bjkfg0

[Dazza.]

Can't argue with that Quietguy and Dimmo

I'm from the school of thought that if you're driving in a manner (other than in the course of taking evasive action) and any of these safety devices are activating - you're driving too fast, or inappropriate for the conditions. Obviously accelerating from a side road in wet conditions sometimes can't be helped - I'm more talking about cornering etc at speed.

Admittedly, I used to be of the thought to turn off stability control on dirt roads because it hindered what I was doing until one day it just hit me, the reason why is because I was driving too fast. Maybe its me getting older & wiser, but I quite often drive on extremely remote roads hours and hours from anywhere. If something untoward happened I'd be totally screwed. As a result I've altered how I drive & I keep the safety aids on (well in vehicle that have them that is!)

Turning these things off "to have fun" when on a dirt road at 80km/h+ is asking for trouble and negligent.

Too many people have a heightened belief regarding their own driving abilities, which is exacerbated by well handling modern vehicles. The long and short of it is DRIVE TO THE CONDITIONS and keep your safety aids on in case you need to take evasive action - or you happen to misjudge a corner or something.

[Quietguy]

Can't argue with that Quietguy and Dimmo

Too many people have a heightened belief regarding their own driving abilities, which is exacerbated by well handling modern vehicles. The long and short of it is DRIVE TO THE CONDITIONS and keep your safety aids on in case you need to take evasive action - or you happen to misjudge a corner or something.

Spot on Dazza. Sadly we seem to read far too often of oldies, grey nomad types, crashing in their 4WDs. While unfortunately there will at times be situations like the one I encountered which are unpredictable, I reckon that many oldies simply don't want admit that driving wise they are not 25.

While judgement and wisdom often improves with age, if this is not tempered by acknowledging that eyesight, reflexes, concentration, and stamina all deteriate with ageing you are dicing with death. My granddaughter thinks I'm a fuddy duddy when I slow down in heavy rain or fog, slow down when I'm feeling tired, and corner gently in the wet. But I do these things to keep myself, her, and other road users as safe as I can, because I KNOW I'm not as good as I was 50 years ago. Each month or so I do a 1600km trip to visit her, and find that I need to take regular breaks, power naps, and sometimes even an overnight stay, to stay safe. Fuddy duddy I maybe but stiff s**t I say to those who want me to do other than what I think is right

David

PS. Of course granddaughter just rolls her eyes when I explain all this, but I don't mind - I just smile and give her a loving pat

[nj swb]

Spot on Dazza. Sadly we seem to read far too often of oldies, grey nomad types, crashing in their 4WDs. While unfortunately there will at times be situations like the one I encountered which are unpredictable, I reckon that many oldies simply don't want admit that driving wise they are not 25.

While judgement and wisdom often improves with age, if this is not tempered by acknowledging that eyesight, reflexes, concentration, and stamina all deteriate with ageing you are dicing with death. My granddaughter thinks I'm a fuddy duddy when I slow down in heavy rain or fog, slow down when I'm feeling tired, and corner gently in the wet. But I do these things to keep myself, her, and other road users as safe as I can, because I KNOW I'm not as good as I was 50 years ago. Each month or so I do a 1600km trip to visit her, and find that I need to take regular breaks, power naps, and sometimes even an overnight stay, to stay safe. Fuddy duddy I maybe but stiff s**t I say to those who want me to do other than what I think is right

David

Once a year I go somewhere on a 4wd trip with my father. I get frustrated by his slow(er) pace and regular stops, but I understand why he does it - so there's no way I'm going to pressure him to do any different.

[conquistador]

Most tend to over react when a skid occurs. And 4wds will amplify the pendulum effect once it gets going.

Im wearing a shorter right ring finger from a muppet in a monaro who needed my lane trying to recover from tank slapper. Luckily it spun side on before collecting me. My mini ended up in the passenger seat. Front on and my ring would be all that's left.

As for skids It all depends on the circumstance. Generally, My advice is steer into it (but not as much as a 2wd) a little less throttle initially in the hope the front will drive it out and get ready to balance it out before it swings the other way. Sometimes left foot braking is the go and will shift the front end to the outside.

I had a lada niva with a rear locker and front swaybar removed that was diabolical on loose gravel. On occasion it was better and safer to let it come around.

[Nik]

I'm pretty sure the Gen 2's had dual live axles. If so that will be the culprit; notorious for sliding out on any loose surface.

Beyond what others have said (feathering the power on) I don't really know what to suggest to improve things, particularly if there's a bit of body roll. In my teens I had access to an early 90s Commodore that had a live rear axle and a horrible suspension setup that I can only imagine was supposed to be for comfortable cruising ie it was soft, sloppy and had some horrendous body roll. To be fair I was new to driving, but I would say that's the most dangerous car I've ever driven. Once it started to slide it went quickly and when(if) it started to recover it was hard to stop it fishtailing out the other way as you described. It would do this every time it rained ... and I was living in New Zealand so I got a lot of practice.

I don't think I ever got better at controlling the skid once it had gone, I just got better at judging when it was going to go and learnt to be gentle with the pedal to ease it through corners.

The Commodore must have found a fond place in my heart for not killing me in my teens though, as I bought a 2006 SV6 a few years ago. It was chalk and cheese from the earlier one, fantastic control in the wet and the dry. I had to turn off traction control and deliberately get the back to slide out, but even then it would step out in a controlled manner and as soon as I eased off the power it would snap back in. What a difference independent suspension and some good shocks make.

I didn't own the SV6 long though. Despite it's huge improvement on road, it was rubbish off road!

[TC.Barky]

I'm pretty sure the Gen 2's had dual live axles

torsion IFS with coil sprung live rear apart from the early pov packs which were leaf. even gen1s were IFS.

I don't really notice it much because I'm used to how it handles but others have mentioned that they really notice the rear live axle in the way it 'follows' the car around the corners. might contribute to oversteer situations as you say. certainly increases body roll :-P

per an earlier comment, 4H still makes a huge difference in the gen2. did an advanced car control course earlier this year in it and it loved to oversteer on the skidpan in Rwd but was virtually impossible to get it to oversteer in 4H. rather it had a greater tendency for understeer like a typical 60/40 front split AWD (subaru etc)

[Nik]

torsion IFS with coil sprung live rear apart from the early pov packs which were leaf. even gen1s were IFS.

Thanks for the correction, hadn't had a proper look at the suspension on them

[TC.Barky]

Thanks for the correction, hadn't had a proper look at the suspension on them

Looking at what I wrote it came across a bit nasty sorry, was not my intention! sorry!!!!

[JFella]

Yep I have fished tailed mine (Gen4 with ESC on) quiet badly before - surface was fine, bit of a loose material and a bit off camber but the main reason was I going to fast. I hit the brakes as a natural reaction as while there was no curb to hit, I was coming down a ridge so there were drop offs not too far out on either side. The paj pulled up pretty quickly really but I ended up sideways in the middle of the road, fortunately the road was remote so no real traffic. As other have said if you are fishtailing you are driving too fast and I now treat the flashing ESC light as a reminder to ease up.

[Nik]

Looking at what I wrote it came across a bit nasty sorry, was not my intention! sorry!!!!

No worries TC, I didn't take it that way I genuinely was saying thanks for the correction as I didn't know what the suspension setup was pre Gen 3.

It didn't really change the information in my post as that related to having a live rear axle.