Pb challenger o/heating - loss 1st gear

[Dahui81]

Hi All,
Need feedback on what this issue could be. Have researched so could be in relation to service campaign for overheating.
So some details;
1. Driving from richmond to lithgow via bells line road in manual mode ( no signs of temp guage going up) mixture of steep winding roads
2. Get to jenolan caves road, slight gradual inclines - temp gauge starts to rise quickly to red section
3. Pull over and coolant flowing out of overflow bottle
4. No cel or a/t lights in dash
5. Let car cool and refill with coolant (radiator was sucking it in)
6. Got to drive off and would not go, just revs). Placed in to drive, neutral back to manual mode and off she went.
No further o/heating issues for the day.

Drive back to syd, grad decline pass leura stop at the lights and go to take off and just reved out. Placed into drive and same thing. Quickly moving to reverse back to drive and off she went.

This was 2+ weeks ago and no further issues until yesterday and again would not go into 1st gear.

Overheating and gear issues happened during snow, temp range 1-5 degrees.
Went off road in mixture of 4h/4l no issues. No load except 2 adults and 3 children. Car has 285’000ks, 2 inch lift and running 285/75/17 on factory pb wheels. Snorkel, munji egr delete, factory nudge bar, no bash plates, oil catch can. Has had service campaign completed with 127kpa radiator cap.

Have also noticed air con compressor is not engaging when turning on.

Mma north shore want $200 for diagnostic test, i would rather purchase scan guage 1st to monitor A/t temps and check error codes.

It almost feels like transmission issue is electrical or combination of hyrdaulic.

Any feedback would be appreciated.



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[old Jack]

Good observations and reporting, it makes diagnosis much easier.

So let's start eliminating the easy things first.

1. AC Compressor not working. For the compressor to engage, the condensor fan needs to be running. The condensor fan also runs if the coolant temperature rises above a certain limit. So first thing is to check fuses 4 and 5 in the relay box under the bonnet, these are both 20amp fuses so pull these and check with a multimeter or just replace them. If either of these fuse are blown then it could contribute to overheating.

2. Overheating with outside air temperatures 1C to 5C, if the radiator air channels is blocked with dirt or mud and then this could cause elevated coolant temperatures. Easy to check, by placing a bright light in the engine bay at night, shutting the bonnet and then look through the grille and you should see the light coming through the radiator and condenser.

3. Is the viscous fan operating correctly? Get the engine hot and have someone turn the engine off whilst you observe the viscous fan. Once the engine stops then the fan should stop almost immediately. If not it is either a new fan or a refill of the silicone oil in the viscous hub.

4. Top up the coolant and then check and record coolant level every morning before you start the engine, if level us down the top up to low level mark and record how much coolant was added.

5. At 285,000kms, unless you have owned the at since new and have a complete service history then you could have coolant gelling, if coolants have been mixed you will need to drain coolant, run a flush for a while and renew coolant. In severe cases the radiator needs to be rodded or replaced.
When was the coolant last changed?

6. If you are worried about the cooling system campaign and a faulty head/block, then a good radiator specialist could do an exhaust gas in coolant check to put your mind at rest.

7. Are you 100% sure you have 285/75R17 tyre's fitted? This size tyre is 859mm in diameter and is 83mm larger on diameter than factory. I would be very surprised if a tyre of this size would fit an a PB Challenget without rubbing.

8. When was the last time the ATF was changed? What colour is it?

9. When you have noticed a high temperature and lost power did you notice if the gear display on the dash was flashing.

OJ.

[Quinno]

OJ, I am a little confused by point 2. Why put a light in the engine bay and shit on it so you can see it through the grill?

[old Jack]

OJ, I am a little confused by point 2. Why put a light in the engine bay and shit on it so you can see it through the grill?

Ha, fat fingers typed the wrong vowel, "i" instead of "u".
Post corrected.

OJ.

[Quinno]

Oh good, was worried I was going about mechanics all wrong.

[Dahui81]

Thanks OJ, see response below

QUOTE=old Jack;614945]Good observations and reporting, it makes diagnosis much easier.

So let's start eliminating the easy things first.

1. AC Compressor not working. For the compressor to engage, the condensor fan needs to be running. The condensor fan also runs if the coolant temperature rises above a certain limit. So first thing is to check fuses 4 and 5 in the relay box under the bonnet, these are both 20amp fuses so pull these and check with a multimeter or just replace them. If either of these fuse are blown then it could contribute to overheating.

1st thing i checked and both not blown. Also checked the condensor fan operation and is turning without aircon on even on cold start up but not at a high rpm.


2. Overheating with outside air temperatures 1C to 5C, if the radiator air channels is blocked with dirt or mud and then this could cause elevated coolant temperatures. Easy to check, by placing a bright light in the engine bay at night, shutting the bonnet and then look through the grille and you should see the light coming through the radiator and condenser.

Also did this straight after trip and hosed (not high pressure) radiator and condensor. Also checked light and could also see light through both.

3. Is the viscous fan operating correctly? Get the engine hot and have someone turn the engine off whilst you observe the viscous fan. Once the engine stops then the fan should stop almost immediately. If not it is either a new fan or a refill of the silicone oil in the viscous hub.

checked this and observed viscious fan still spins around 2-3 seconds after turning off engine.. this could be the issue?

4. Top up the coolant and then check and record coolant level every morning before you start the engine, if level us down the top up to low level mark and record how much coolant was added.

Topped up and have no coolant loss since. Approx two weeks ago

5. At 285,000kms, unless you have owned the at since new and have a complete service history then you could have coolant gelling, if coolants have been mixed you will need to drain coolant, run a flush for a while and renew coolant. In severe cases the radiator needs to be rodded or replaced.
When was the coolant last changed?

Bought this 3 months ago as runaround daily - also more family friendly 4wd than my modified N70 hilux that family struggle to climb in .. but was impressed with its capability minus auto gearbox so decide to make some changes to her.

It has service history up until 220,000 in which timing belt/waterpump was replaced. Unfort only oil/filter servicing receipts afterwards.. I serviced it as soon as i picked it up, all fluids ..diffs, oils, filters except transmission and coolant
Ill do a complete flush and see how it goes.

6. If you are worried about the cooling system campaign and a faulty head/block, then a good radiator specialist could do an exhaust gas in coolant check to put your mind at rest.

Might do this before coolant change.

7. Are you 100% sure you have 285/75R17 tyre's fitted? This size tyre is 859mm in diameter and is 83mm larger on diameter than factory. I would be very surprised if a tyre of this size would fit an a PB Challenget without rubbing.

Sorry typo 285/70/17. Trimming of inner front guard when at stock height. Have xrox bar still to fit. I installed lift 3 weeks ago now slightest rub at full lock on sway bar only. I have dynamic Steels in 30p so will give these try.

8. When was the last time the ATF was changed? What colour is it?

No recent records, dip stick is pinkish/red. Will get transmission specialist to do complete flush and filter
Change

9. When you have noticed a high temperature and lost power did you notice if the gear display on the dash was flashing.

No display flashing.

Havent checked the manual but when im in drive, i am able to change gears via paddle shift. Thought this would only
work when gear shift is in sport mode?
OJ.[/QUOTE]






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[old Jack]

Reply in blue font below.

Thanks OJ, see response below

QUOTE=old Jack;614945]Good observations and reporting, it makes diagnosis much easier.

So let's start eliminating the easy things first.

1. AC Compressor not working. For the compressor to engage, the condensor fan needs to be running. The condensor fan also runs if the coolant temperature rises above a certain limit. So first thing is to check fuses 4 and 5 in the relay box under the bonnet, these are both 20amp fuses so pull these and check with a multimeter or just replace them. If either of these fuse are blown then it could contribute to overheating.

1st thing i checked and both not blown. Also checked the condensor fan operation and is turning without aircon on even on cold start up but not at a high rpm.
The electric fan in front of the AC condensor should come on when the AC is selected on and the cabin fan is selected on, no matter what the temperature or engine rpm.

2. Overheating with outside air temperatures 1C to 5C, if the radiator air channels is blocked with dirt or mud and then this could cause elevated coolant temperatures. Easy to check, by placing a bright light in the engine bay at night, shutting the bonnet and then look through the grille and you should see the light coming through the radiator and condenser.

Also did this straight after trip and hosed (not high pressure) radiator and condensor. Also checked light and could also see light through both.
All good.

3. Is the viscous fan operating correctly? Get the engine hot and have someone turn the engine off whilst you observe the viscous fan. Once the engine stops then the fan should stop almost immediately. If not it is either a new fan or a refill of the silicone oil in the viscous hub.

checked this and observed viscious fan still spins around 2-3 seconds after turning off engine.. this could be the issue?
This could be contributing to the problem but I doubt if it is the only thing since the fan is only spinning for a second or two after shutdown. The viscous fan should stop very quickly. If you try and turn it by hand it should offer reasonable resistance. It is possible to service these by draining and refilling the hub with silicon oil, this is available as a Toyota spare part. there is a thread about this.

4. Top up the coolant and then check and record coolant level every morning before you start the engine, if level is down then top up to low level mark and record how much coolant was added.

Topped up and have no coolant loss since. Approx two weeks ago.
Good sign.

5. At 285,000kms, unless you have owned the at since new and have a complete service history then you could have coolant gelling, if coolants have been mixed you will need to drain coolant, run a flush for a while and renew coolant. In severe cases the radiator needs to be rodded or replaced.
When was the coolant last changed?

Bought this 3 months ago as runaround daily - also more family friendly 4wd than my modified N70 hilux that family struggle to climb in .. but was impressed with its capability minus auto gearbox so decide to make some changes to her.
Since you are running very large tyre's Ai would suggest you consider fitting a TC lockup kit, MM4x4 have 2 options but only Lockup Mate maybe suitable for grossly over size tyre's, it is not something we tested during the development phase. Auto Mate is tuned for standard diameter tyre's and up one profile to 803mm diameter only.

It has service history up until 220,000 in which timing belt/waterpump was replaced. Unfort only oil/filter servicing receipts afterwards.. I serviced it as soon as i picked it up, all fluids ..diffs, oils, filters except transmission and coolant
Ill do a complete flush and see how it goes.
Coolant system can be difficult to bleed all the air out, easier if front the front wheels are on ramps so car has a nose up attitude.

6. If you are worried about the cooling system campaign and a faulty head/block, then a good radiator specialist could do an exhaust gas in coolant check to put your mind at rest.

Might do this before coolant change.

7. Are you 100% sure you have 285/75R17 tyre's fitted? This size tyre is 859mm in diameter and is 83mm larger on diameter than factory. I would be very surprised if a tyre of this size would fit an a PB Challenget without rubbing.

Sorry typo 285/70/17. Trimming of inner front guard when at stock height. Have xrox bar still to fit. I installed lift 3 weeks ago now slightest rub at full lock on sway bar only. I have dynamic Steels in 30p so will give these try.
285/70R17 are 831mm in diameter so this is still 55mm larger than stock. This will be playing havoc with the torque convertor lockup so I would expect higher ATF temps. Auto has a high stall ratio TC, this was fitted because of the 3000kg towing capacity (joke) and the high diff ratios. The auto ECU has several self protect functions, one of these is a time out on TC slip, the ECU looks at engine rpm, output shaft speed and throttle position and if there is too much TC slip for too greater time then auto trans goes into self protect mode that drops gear down to 3rd andlimits power. If the TC slip continues then the Auto trans locks in to 2nd gear and power is cut completely. The gear display on the dash flashes "N" and to reset the trans you need to release the accelerator and move the gear selector to "N" then back to "D".
P30 offset wheels may solve the tyre rubbing on the sway bar but I suspect they will rub on the rear section of the wheel arch at full lock and full suspension tuck.

8. When was the last time the ATF was changed? What colour is it?

No recent records, dip stick is pinkish/red. Will get transmission specialist to do complete flush and filter
Change
A good sign, have you checked the level is correct whilst the engine is running and after cycling through R-N-D-N?
9. When you have noticed a high temperature and lost power did you notice if the gear display on the dash was flashing.

No display flashing.
Mmm, I would have expected this to be happening.

Havent checked the manual but when im in drive, i am able to change gears via paddle shift. Thought this would only
work when gear shift is in sport mode?
When in "D" you can you use the paddle shift to change gears up and down but when you come to a stop the trans will go back into "D".
OJ.

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[Dahui81]

Thanks OJ.
Haven’t had time to do any servicing.
Have plugged obd scanner and no error
Codes coming up.

Took it for a drive and believe the transmission issue has to be electronic. Drove fine both in sports and drive mode but 40 mins into stop/go traffic i lost 1st gear, then just reved out. In sports mode the dash was cycling neutral to 1st 2nd then blank. Managed to pull over placed into drive and was able to drive 500m before it happend again.
Towed it home, took it for a drive approx 1km no issues. Stationary i was shifting between neutral, sports mode and drive to try and replicate the dash to indicate blank gear selection and it did it. In sports mode no gear indication other than neutral then after few mins blank.

Checked AT fluid levels as instructed and all good.

No overheating issues.

Def tyres contributing to TC issues.

As it can go days before the issue occurs and there is no abnormal noises or vibrations coming from transmission i can only think its electical/solenoid/ecu issues? Could this be symptoms of faulty neutral inhibitor switch?

Looks like ill be taking it to AT specialist.

Thanks again


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[old Jack]

inhibit switch has caused others problems with it being set too fine, easy to a dust 1/2 turn with 14mm spanner, sitch is located on top of LH side of trans.
Reference B09 in this diagram.

http://faq.out-club.ru/download/pajero_sport_2008/maintenance/Service_Manual_2009_2011/img/80/ACA00497AB00ENG.pdf

Can you read the engine coolant temperature with your OBD reader?
There are 2 engine coolant temperature sensors, one is the the temperature gauge on the dash and the other is for the Engine ECU. If the temp sensor for the Engine ECU is giving false readings then this can cause a whole lot of problems with the engine and auto trans control.

OJ.