Torque Convertor Lockup kits, Good or Bad technical discussion.

[m_and_m]

Thanks for the feedback. some comments below.

The easing of restrictions has allowed me to do the first decent drive with the auto-mate (AM), in the hinterland of the Gold Coast. My perceptions are as follows:

1. There is an amazing difference in transmission temp when turning AM on and off. When on the move, with AM on, the transmission temp hovers between 53deg and 57deg, with an engine coolant temp of between 82deg to 85deg. Turn the AM off and it almost immediately rises 20deg. Also if I have to halt for junction or traffic lights, the temp rises 5deg almost immediately.
Yes, hard to believe it can make such a difference, but it does.
2. When travelling up windy 25-35kph bends with smallish straights in between, there are a lot of gear changes and, for my taste, it seemed better to run in sports mode and run slightly higher rpms between corners.
Yes, 25-35kph is right in the range where AM8 needs to hand control over to the factory computer (in DRIVE) to avoid the 1st gear quirk. The factory computer will want to go to 3rd whereas you say you really want to stay in 2nd. Unfortunately, not much can be done about it.

3. The lower, low load rpm limit on gear changes seems to be about 1500rpm. When pulling away at that rpm with AM locked there's noticeable, but not disconcerting, engine/driveline vibration.
Yes, 1500 is the lower limit before it shudders a lot. Driveline is very sensitive between 1500 to 2000 RPM. You can adjust the shift pattern up a bit, but as you say it's not disconcerting.
4. Better fuel economy at 9.7L/100km for gentle uphill/down dale travelling.
You also get really good savings when cruising at 80-90kph

[Mundy55]

2. When travelling up windy 25-35kph bends with smallish straights in between, there are a lot of gear changes and, for my taste, it seemed better to run in sports mode and run slightly higher rpms between corners.

Yes, 25-35kph is right in the range where AM8 needs to hand control over to the factory computer (in DRIVE) to avoid the 1st gear quirk. The factory computer will want to go to 3rd whereas you say you really want to stay in 2nd. Unfortunately, not much can be done about it.

So, does this mean if I wanted to stay in 2nd, say, I might be better turning off AM8 so sports mode operates as normal? If I were pulling my van up such hills, I'd not want to be in drive, even though it looks like I won't be able to avoid TC slippage. I'd want to keep the TC temps as low as possible by changing down to a lower gear in sports mode.

Similarly, am I right that, if coming to a steep hill, in order to use engine braking, I need to be in sports mode before the speed drops below 30kph in order to stay locked and not go into drive? In such a case, if I am approaching a steep hill and go into sports mode, can I change down to 3rd and even 2nd when below 30kph or must I be in that gear before the speed drops below 30kph?

[m_and_m]

So, does this mean if I wanted to stay in 2nd, say, I might be better turning off AM8 so sports mode operates as normal? If I were pulling my van up such hills, I'd not want to be in drive, even though it looks like I won't be able to avoid TC slippage. I'd want to keep the TC temps as low as possible by changing down to a lower gear in sports mode.

Really depends on the hiills. If it's a 2nd gear climb you are usually above 30kph. You can turn AM8/LM8 off and use 2nd SPORT (so long as the quirk has been cleared), but keep a very close eye on the transmission oil temps.
If you're in <30kph territory towing up very steep hills, auto-mate(AM8) and lockup-mate(LM8) will let you turn off the anti-quirk feature (of shifting into automatically DRIVE). If you can get it into 2nd (ie no quirk happening) it will lockup the TCC in 2nd and this is a much better scenario to be in. This is all pretty advanced use of AM8/LM8 though, and would be quite rare to need.

Similarly, am I right that, if coming to a steep hill, in order to use engine braking, I need to be in sports mode before the speed drops below 30kph in order to stay locked and not go into drive? In such a case, if I am approaching a steep hill and go into sports mode, can I change down to 3rd and even 2nd when below 30kph or must I be in that gear before the speed drops below 30kph?

No, auto-mate and lockup-mate in the Pajero NT+ recognise if you are in 1st or 2nd and engine braking. It will hold the current gear and not switch you into DRIVE. Sometimes the '1st gear quirk' may happen and it shifts into 1st at 30kph, but this is better than losing engine braking by the ECU shifting you into 3rd when you go to DRIVE mode.

For long windy downhill descents for many kms needing 2nd gear, you can switch AM8/LM8 off and use the standard SPORT mode. (The quirk needs to be cleated, and can be done by turning AM8/LM8 off and driving from 0 to >30kph in DRIVE mode; or, using your OBD2 reader to clear engine codes..even if there are none).

[Mundy55]

Thanks again MandM. Hopefully no more questions.

I've read the manual several times and despite thinking I am reasonably intelligent, have missed the subtlety(?) that the sole/main purpose of keeping the transmission in drive below 30kph when lever is in sports mode is to avoid the quirks. I'll have to read again to try and see why I missed that.

What I will say, from experience, is that whilst one obviously needs designers to write operating manuals, they usually find it hard to explain what to them is bleedingly obvious. So sometimes there's a lack of clarity for some issues.

[m_and_m]

Thanks again MandM. Hopefully no more questions.

I've read the manual several times and despite thinking I am reasonably intelligent, have missed the subtlety(?) that the sole/main purpose of keeping the transmission in drive below 30kph when lever is in sports mode is to avoid the quirks. I'll have to read again to try and see why I missed that.

What I will say, from experience, is that whilst one obviously needs designers to write operating manuals, they usually find it hard to explain what to them is bleedingly obvious. So sometimes there's a lack of clarity for some issues.

yes, sometimes we don't see the forest for the trees.
I'll make some improvements to the manual. I also missed the obvious that in DRIVE it doesn't activate until it's able to lockup in 5th gear, which is above 75-80 kph. This is to stop unnecessary lock, unlock cycles as gear change, given the auto changes gears too early for it to stay locked up.

[Mundy55]

Well, perhaps a penultimate feedback on the Auto-mate. I did a 300km circuit from Gold Coast through D'Aguilar NP and back yesterday. 2/3 on flatish highway between 80kph and 100kph. (Personally, I like travelling at 100gauge which is about 95kph actual, which I find to be a comfortable speed). For the hour drive to Brisbane, I achieved 7.8L/100km, a never before seen fuel economy for me. 1/3 on steepish winding roads, where I achieved around 9.5L/100km, again amazing for the hill work. Transmission temp stabilised flat or hilly at 57deg as long as I was moving. Overall a little less than 9L/100km for the trip.

As noted before, for me, on the steep (up or down) windy sections, I find sports mode the go. On up hills, it reduces gear changes as, in drive, it changes up as you ease off before the corner and lugs as you come out of a bend before it changes down again. Its like driving a manual and being in the right gear when you see what's coming rather than waiting to react after the event.

I had no problems with the quirks and on the long steep downhills I was able to drop it back to second where I wanted, for engine breaking.

For local short runs when things don't get hot enough and in stop start city runs, there's little benefit for me, either in transmission temp or fuel economy.

Haven't used AM8 with my camper yet, so you may have to endure another update sometime in the future.

[PaulMcG]

I've just fitted Automate to my NX, and couldn't be happier with the results. There is the obvious improvement in ATF temperatures, but what isn't mentioned in a lot of feedback on this unit, (and Lockup Mate), is the noticeable lowering of Inlet Air Temperatures.

My initial quest to monitor and hopefully limit ATF temps while towing started with the fitment of an Ultra gauge a few months ago. (Another thanks to Marshall for his detailed instructions on how to customise this unit to display ATF temperatures.) Next came the lockdown, so I didn't think I would get a chance to get any indication while towing, and just managed to slip out for one quick day trip over the range before pulling down the shutters.

There's one final climb on the way home, a rise of about 300 metres over 3km, the first part is 70-80 kmh, before tightening up to 30-40 kph for the last 2Km. Vehicle lightly loaded, (about 300kg passengers and fridge all up, std sized tyres and preDPF lower final drive ratio, no bullbar, winch, or 2nd battery- just a nudge bar and Boos plates). With transmission in drive, 2/3 of the way up, the Inlet Air Temp alarmed at 105 degrees on the Ultragauge. Ambient air temp was only 26, so I was pretty surprised, and a bit concerned. I wasn't familiar enough with the Ultragauge to clear the alarm then get back up my other parameters before it was all over, but on reflection I started to suspect high ATF temps may have been a contributing factor, and decided on trying the Automate.

Once fitted, and with restrictions eased, I was straight back out to the same range. I did four runs, there was no traffic, so all at comparable speeds, but unfortunately winter had arrived and air temp was only about 15 degrees. (I also ran about 6km across the flats at the bottom of each descent to allow temperatures to normalise before the next subsequent run.)The results, at the top of the range:-

Run 1- Automate off, transmission in drive:-
Coolant temp - 88
Inlet air temp - 74
ATF pipe temp - 93
ATF pan temp - 76
(Outside air temp 15)
A nice smooth ascent, but obviously the TC was unlocked for much of the way.

Run 2- Automate on, transmission in drive:-
Coolant temp - 86
Inlet Air temp - 58
ATF pipe temp - 64
ATF pan temp - 64
(Outside air temp 15)
Automate stayed locked in 4th and 3rd for first part, then stayed locked in 3rd and 2nd for tighter part, but there was some hunting up and down and clunky changes between 2nd and 3rd.

Run 3- Automate off, Transmission in sports mode:-
Coolant temp - 86
Inlet air temp - 71
ATF pipe temp - 80
ATF pan temp - 72
(outside air temp now up to 16)
Changing between 4th and 3rd, then 3rd and 2nd, pretty much at the same places Automate was selecting. Obviously the TC was still unlocked, and for more of the time than I would have thought.

Run 4- Automate on, Transmission in Sports mode:-
Coolant temp - 86
Inlet Air temp - 66
ATF pipe temp - 66
ATF pan temp - 66
(outside air temp now 17)
Once again, selecting similar gears, but the TC was locked the entire ascent, and nice smooth changes. (IAT was up a little bit from the prior locked up run, but ambient was up by 2 degrees, and the transmission and changes felt so good, I think I slipped the boot into it a bit more.)

So the big variances for me, apart from the obvious lower ATF temps, was the ability to control the IAT's. Even with relatively low ambient temperatures, there was a 16 degree difference between the worst result with vehicle in drive and no lockup, and the full automate run. That can only be compounded on a hot summer day. Cooler, denser inlet air resulting in better fuel consumption, less heat, the circle goes round and round.

These tests were done on day one after fitment. After another 500kms, the learning function of the AT control unit seems to be improving some gear selection function. And a short trial run towing a van confirms all the other positive feedback on this excellent innovation.

[old Jack]

Hi Paul,

Welcome to the "converted mob", the locked up torque convertor that is. The benifets you discovered for yourself, I discovered over 2 1/2 years and 40,000km ago, almost too good to be true, but they are. There are not any safer or smarter aftermarket torque convertor control system than MM4x4's Lockup Mate and Auto Mate. Just wait until you get on the dirt and can experience the clutchless manual type gear changes you can do and the vehicle control that this provides, especially if you have paddle shifters.

OJ.

[m_and_m]

Hi Paul,
Thanks for taking the time to do such a detailed comparison and sharing your results.
We’ve done similar test and got the same outcomes.
People tend to focus on fuel economy savings and ATF reduction, but in all reality with the torque converter locked when it’s able to, the engine just doesn’t need to work as hard. This means lower ATF, lower engine coolant temp, and lower air intake temp(AIT) plus better fuel economy as a Very nice side benefit.
The lower AIT is a real indicator of how much less the engine needs to work.

The torque converter is an amazing mechanic device, but has it’s limitations.
Your tests were with the vehicle pretty much stock. Imagine the difference when the car needed to work really hard while doing the same tests towing.

Again, thanks so much for sharing your testing results.
And thanks for the review. The results speak for themselves.

Yes, as the transmission’s adaptive learning get used to auto-mate it gets even better with time.

Cheers,
Marshall

[NTBenny]

I've found the same occurs with EGT's. With Auto-mate using a lower gear and a locked TC there is a nice reduction in EGT's aswell.

Benny.