New Suspension

[dave60]

I know this topic has been done to death but with all the various types and brands of suspension talked about on this forum I can't seem to get a grasp as to what brand might be a clear winner overall.

I am leaning down the path of replacing the Challenger suspension and require a basic comfort style package that may or may not include a lift.

The car is the wife's daily drive so it must be comfortable on a daily basis but be able to cope with dirt tracks and corrugations when we go away, something the standard set-up is woeful at.

The car doesn't carry any weight on a daily basis but is fitted with a full set of Bushskinz under-body protection and nudge bar that adds about 40Kgs to the front.

I am looking for comments, good, bad or indifferent on the following brands that I have looked at-

ARB/OME

Dobinsons

TJM

Ironman


All comments and real life experiences appreciated.

[Onyx]

I recently had OME fitted to mine. It has about 55kg added to the front and generally empty at the rear. I had medium springs (bar only) at the front and their medium springs at the rear (0kg to GVM) fitted. While I've only done about 1000km on it, it has made a dramatic improvement to the ride quality on and off road. It's firmer but not hard or harsh. The car it much more sure footed through corners and over rough ground. So far I'm happy with it.

[old Jack]

Hi Dave,

Replacing your suspension will transform your Challenger. You need to be very clear about your expectations in regards to added fixed weight and variable weight. You cannot have a setup that is excellent for all situations.
Standard factory ride heights (EBH) is 542mm front and 552mm rear. You are limited to lifting the front by about 30-35mm any higher and you lose downwards wheel travel. The rear you can lift about 40mm any higher and you will most likely get driveline vibration at 35kph to 45kph. So decide on your ride heights, the fixed and variable weights for both the front and rear axles. Towing, if so what ball load? What tyres are you running/wanting to run? Do you have a spend limit?

cheers, OJ.

[dave60]

Hi OJ,

While the idea of getting a slight lift is appealing whilst I am upgrading and spending the money it is not the motivating factor ATM as I do very little off roading that would require it. That is not to say that in the future I may not need it.
Currently my only fixed weight is the front with the nudge bar and Bushskinz, the rear however is the variable when we tow/tour.
When we tow I generally have a static weight in the boot of about 100kgs with the engel and some tools and I have a ball load of approx 180Kgs.
I realistically only drop about 50mm in height when hooked up and these weights are taken care of with a WDH, when unhooked I have no discernible loss in height.
My aim is to get a vehicle that can handle dirt tracks and smooth out corrugations when I am out exploring, something that the standard set up seems incapable of, I do not tow on dirt roads so I only have the gear in the boot.
As for the tyres I still have the HT and until they expire they will do me, then I will look at some AT tyres.
My budget is about $1500-$1600 dollars for a fitted kit as I do not have the tools or technical knowledge to do the job myself.
The current quotes range between $1350-$1860 fitted.

[Motorace]

Super interested in this one too! Our PB is the same, nudge and bash plate and use for the daily driver with zero load.

Want better handling and ride off road, but not hard and rough on road.

[Ent]

The dreaded best that a launched a thousand flame wars.

As OJ decide what you are after and aim for that. Good example is OJ versus my set up. OJ is an out back tourer so looking at near GVM for most of the trip. In Tassie we unload our vehicles then tackle the tracks. Carrying water is almost unknown to us along with extra fuel.

So my setup is firmer front springs with adjustable ride height from Drummond. Very expensive as it is near racing grade. Result, the dreaded front collapse going over rocks downhill has gone. Ride not harsh, indeed high quality dampeners with firmer springs gives to my motion sickness prone balance system a much nicer ride.

Rear springs are a pain. It is a case you pay your money and take your chances on ride height. My solution was custom variable diameter and rate springs. Why that? I wanted slightly increase suspension travel for the Bilstein rear dampeners but still full compression. This limited the wire diameter to 16mm. Result, superb offroad performance, good zero load ride, and the ability to handle GVM with not too much backside dragging on the ground. I went for factory plus the 20mm allowed tolerance in height and maybe 5mm to allow for future sag.

I have a set of Dobinson springs as spares. Not too bad in ride but they made the rear too tall without a load. Also the limited free height meant the rear springs dislodged under full travel.

Now on Bilsteins. I had a chance to run Drummonds on the rear for a while but due to inappropriate dampener length they were removed. But during that time the feel was excellent. The Bilsteins were a step back by quite a margin. The trouble with the Bilsteins is they are not tuned for the Challenger. They came from another vehicle and merely were re-bushed. They are ok, and better than standard, but just about anything is. Tempted by the remote canister ones from Dobinson if they fail. Something Bilsteins do rather more regularly than people want to let on.

The result of all this money and heartache is a vehicle with excellent on road ride as a commuter, with ability to hit rocky slippery medium to hard tracks, then carrying all my toys for a long weekend without pointing skyward.

Many firmer rear Spring setups result in the spring scragging out before the bumpstops. Hence, OJ's solution. I was independently going down that path until we found Mr King had perfectly matched the spring so I could use the existing bumpstops. Lot of measurements and number crunching involved, and I was very impressed by Mr King's patience and immense knowledge.

Indeed, I strongly recommend someone looking for a moderate lift and full wheel articulation chat to Kings about my setup on the rear. It is well suited to the 535mm travel Bilsteins.

So there be my journey. Very expensive and highly frustrating but end result a very happy camper.

[wfc100]

Ent forgive my naivety but what is 'scragging out'?

Regards

[littleriver]

Many firmer rear Spring setups result in the spring scragging out before the bumpstops. Hence, OJ's solution. I was independently going down that path until we found Mr King had perfectly matched the spring so I could use the existing bumpstops. Lot of measurements and number crunching involved, and I was very impressed by Mr King's patience and immense knowledge.

Indeed, I strongly recommend someone looking for a moderate lift and full wheel articulation chat to Kings about my setup on the rear. It is well suited to the 535mm travel Bilsteins.

So there be my journey. Very expensive and highly frustrating but end result a very happy camper.

Can you please enlighten us again on your measurements
for EBH for front and rear
(can't seem to remember)
thankyou

[Ent]

Scragging is when a spring is fully compressed. A well made coil spring is often tested by been fully compressed, and it should return to it before free height. Often a side effect of cold rolled springs is as they are made by cold method they might not return to full height. A hot made quench spring has a better chance but then at the risk of fracturing. In Australia most spring manufacturers use hot rolling then quenching while in Asia springs are cold rolled. Ideally, a spring should experience minimal sag over its working life hence some that claim cold rolled springs are not as good as hot rolled ones. Other claim this not the case.

Many after market springs are made of heavier wire so when compressed they"bind" before the rubber compression cones and bump stops came into play so the spring pads encounter shock loads that they are not designed for.

Suspension height for DooSo is factory plus 25-25mm which from memory is 567 front and 577 rear. The Challenger is designed by Mitsubishi with a ten millimeter nose down rake to allow for some rear loading. I can go 75mm higher than standard on the front by winding them up with the big wrench supplied.

To get the free height that I required to retain the rear springs along with the factory compression height Mr King was restricted to 10mm wire diameter increasing to 16mm. Any hard hits on the rear are then taken up by the factory rubber cones and finally the bumpstops. As the rear suspension was designed to do.

Works for me a treat but if maximum GVM on long high speed roads is your need then see OJ's setup.

[Motorace]

Hey Dave60

Called around yesterday and got some prices so I thought I would share (prices are installed);


ARB/OME Rasied Front +20mm Rear +35mm 0 to GVM $1972

Fulcrum RAW/Kings +40mm $1650

TJM XGS +40mm $1800

Ironman Foam Cell +40mm 0-200kg $1550


ARB and Fulcrum were knowledgeable when I called up, the rest had no clue. They didn't even know the difference between constant and variable (progressive) rate springs!!

Tempted to go the ARB/OME. The lift would be legal (I think) and hopefully no issues with the suspension geometry changing. Also it's only $422 bucks more than the cheapest (Ironman). That's about 3 bucks a week more over 3 years (warranty for OME).

What do you guys think? Would the OME be the most comfortable on road as a daily driver?

[Ent]

Legal can depend on the state. If VSB 14 applies then any alteration to an ASC equipped vehicle's suspension outside manufacturer specifications unless approved by a registered engineer are illegal.

Take all the height claims with a pinch of salt.

Foam dampeners have the issue that they work well until overheated, and then the foam degrades. Once the foam degrades it does not come back. Gas dampeners unless they explode or melt will return to pre-extreme use conditions, as will just oil ones.

Just watch that your front droop stops have not been removed, the rear lines are not tight when the rear axle is dangling. Harder to check if the rear springs bind before the overload cones and bumpstops come into play.

Check also the rear dampeners have enough clearance. Some big body dampers can hit on the sway bar on the rear.

Cheers

[Giddyup]

Legal can depend on the state. If VSB 14 applies then any alteration to an ASC equipped vehicle's suspension outside manufacturer specifications unless approved by a registered engineer are illegal.

Not true anymore. As of Nov 2015 VSB14 states :

Raising the height of the vehicle may be performed without certification providing the overall increase in vehicle height is not more than 50mm. This may be achieved as a single modification such as the installation of a 50mm lift kit, or by a combination of smaller lifts as described below:

- the fitting of body blocks or lift kits (50mm maximum if no other modifications resulting in a change of vehicle height are performed); suspension modification, (50mm maximum if no other modifications resulting in a change of vehicle height are performed);

- changes to tyre size (maximum change in tyre size diameter of 50mm); or

- a combination of the above that results in a change of vehicle height not exceeding 50mm.

Seems the regulators made a sensible decision for a change.

https://practicalmotoring.com.au/car-advice/law-changes-to-make-legal-suspension-lifts-and-lowers-easier/

[Ent]

This is one issue I rather like been proven wrong on. That is assuming the article is correct and the change adopted by the affected states.

Still leaves the warranty issue but avoids legal issues.

Thanks for the link.

[old Jack]

Hi Ent,

VSB-14 was modified in November 2015, the requirements were relaxed and a more common sense approach has been adopted. Lifts of up to 50mm are permitted but you must still retain a minimum of 2/3's of the manufacturers wheel travel in extension.

Here is the thread;

http://forum.pajeroclub.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=50390

VSB-14 is a "live" document so those states which use it must use the current version, I think every state and territory in Australia except for SA use VSB-14. I have not checked on SA recently as know they were considering adopting it.

cheers, OJ.

[dave60]

Thanks for all the feedback so far guys, it certainly is a popular topic with many and varied opinions.

I have not made any decisions as yet to brand however I will probably only go for a standard ride height due to issues that will arise from the additional vehicle height with my WDH.

Cheers Dave