pc challenger with droopstop issue with kings spring fitted

[challenger121]

Has anyone heard of using an extended ball joint for the challenger which is used on the triton to give more clearance for the droopstop?
I just called to change the springs and they recommend to use extended ball joints instead.

[old Jack]

Has anyone heard of using an extended ball joint for the challenger which is used on the triton to give more clearance for the droopstop?
I just called to change the springs and they recommend to use extended ball joints instead.

Not sure how much is to be gained by changing the ball joints.
Eventually you run out travel even with the bump stops removed completely then you have to use aftermarket control arms. Problem is then you start destroying CV joints!
If you want a 4wd with lots of wheel travel then buy something with live axles front and rear.

OJ.

[challenger121]

No worries OJ,
I decided on swapping for the lower front springs so I am happy to keep things close to standard and not risk any expensive issues later on.

[Ent]

When cutting droop stops you are playing with fire. The standard CV on the Triton/Challenger is reasonably strong but with droop stops removed (sadly was a common practice with some suspension "experts") you on full look on rock/mud can destroy them. The front suspension has what appears to be about a two to one leverage factor so 10mm gap gives about 20mm or more of travel plus some compression of the stop.

I run front EHB of 562-568mm and have enough clearance to not have any problem. Due to the DMS front being adjustable I plan to creep it up for a Simpson trip once rear load and new springs are worked out, but as OJ suggest 575mm is practical maximum. Indeed I tend to think 572mm will be enough for me.

On the Triton forum is a guy that is an expert in replacing CVs in the bush and having removed his droop stops fully expects a one to two CV extreme trip. I am not built that way so instead creep up height with 235r16/85 tyres and long for the day 245r16/85 becomes an option.

[littleriver]

On the Triton forum is a guy that is an expert in replacing CVs in the bush and having removed his droop stops fully expects a one to two CV extreme trip. I am not built that way so instead creep up height with 235r16/85 tyres and long for the day 245r16/85 becomes an option.

How about these 33 inch

https://www.jaxtyres.com.au/tyres/sizes/16-inch/255-85r16

...

[Ent]

Was tempted but they exceed the 50mm allowed height gain I think at 67mm and might have clearance issues.

[Onyx]

sagging front springs

Having sorted out my rear suspension for towing following the very helpful advice from the forum [https://www2.pajeroclub.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=54376&page=12], I now have a problem with the front (seemingly unrelated). So I’m now looking for some thoughts on what to do about the front.
The ARB/OME suspension kit now has just over 30,000km on it, installed January 2016. The car has an XROX bull bar (~45kg), Runva XP11 winch (32kg), 3mm Basha intercooler and sump underbody protection plates (+10-15kg), a 22 inch Stedi lightbar (3kg) and a single UHF aerial (SFA). Given somewhere between 10-20kg is removed to fit the bar, I estimate there is now approx. 75-80kg hanging over the front axles (car empty) from standard.
The kit fitted based on the above and it being mostly empty was EK3503B1, which is the ‘bull bar only’ set up with the following springs:
Front coils PN. 2606
Rear coils PN.2910 0-200kgs.

After installing the suspension it has been a big improvement over standard, until recently. So this is where I’m at:
Original EBHs were:
Front – 545mm
Rear – 555mm
After installing (and it settled) the ARB/OME suspension, EBHs (with about 50kg or less in the rear) are:
Front – 565mm
Rear – 595mm
A couple of months ago the ESC started triggering regularly when turn left or right while descending (think of the types of corners you could lift a rear wheel in a VW GTI if you were having a go) – prior to that it very rarely triggered. EBHs are now:
Front – 560mm
Rear – 595mm

While I’d prefer not to be losing 5mm in height, the regular triggering of the ESC is concerning and it feels softer in the front and less balanced overall. As a result I’m looking at the following options:
a) Switch off the ESC [not desirable];
b) Replace the front spring with ARB/OME coils PN. 3027 (suited for ARB bull bar and winch – so roughly 100kg or more); or
c) Replace the front springs with Kings KCFR-55H (which I imagine would give an estimated front EBH of 575mm).

The thinking is based on an assumption that the shocks are ok as they’ve only done 30,000km and treated well. I’m also assuming I can just change the front springs and not the rears. I’m guessing that ARB/OME springs are made by Kings, so should fit the struts much the same. However, assumption is the mother of all stuff ups, so maybe I should be replacing the lot!
I have read Flatbiskit’s thread on stability control problems and given I’m also Canberra based, not so keen on going to the dealer as a first port of call – apart from that the car is working well (touch wood!).
I’d appreciate any thoughts on what might be the best way to go to sort this out.
Many thanks in advance.

BTW – I put air bags in the rear and so far they’ve been great!

[old Jack]

Hi Onyx,

Unfortunately I think you need to eliminate 2 things firsts and this requires a trip to the Dealer Service Department or to someone with a MUTT.
Both the steering angle sensor and G/Yaw rare sensors need the neutral position recalibrated.
The steering angle sensor can get out of calibration during wheel alignments.
The G/Yaw rate sensor can get out of calibration when you do a suspension lift and the rake angle increases.

With a front EBH of 560mm you should have plenty of droop travel on the front suspension so this should not be a problem.

Does the problem only happen when going downhill and cornering hard?
Does it happen with or without brake application.
Does the problem happen in both 2wd and 4H?
Are tyre pressures the same left and right across the axle.
Do both tyres across the axle have similar tread depths?

OJ.

[Onyx]

Many thanks for the reply OJ.

The car is booked in for a service next week at the dealer so will get them to recalibrate those things. Hopefully that will do the trick.

In terms of your questions about when it happens:
Does the problem only happen when going downhill and cornering hard? - Yes. It only does it when turning left with only the driver in the vehicle. With a passenger, it will do it when turning left and right which is why I thought it may be a weight v. spring issue.
Does it happen with or without brake application. - Its doesn't appear to happen when the brakes are applied.
Does the problem happen in both 2wd and 4H? - No, only in 2wd.
Are tyre pressures the same left and right across the axle. - Yes always the same - 39psi.
Do both tyres across the axle have similar tread depths? - Yes, tyres are rotated regularly and all 4 are almost identical in depth at the moment.

Should I be concerned about the recent increase in rake from 30mm to 35mm?

Thanks again,
John

[old Jack]

Many thanks for the reply OJ.

The car is booked in for a service next week at the dealer so will get them to recalibrate those things. Hopefully that will do the trick.

In terms of your questions about when it happens:
Does the problem only happen when going downhill and cornering hard? - Yes. It only does it when turning left with only the driver in the vehicle. With a passenger, it will do it when turning left and right which is why I thought it may be a weight v. spring issue.
Does it happen with or without brake application. - Its doesn't appear to happen when the brakes are applied.
Does the problem happen in both 2wd and 4H? - No, only in 2wd.
Are tyre pressures the same left and right across the axle. - Yes always the same - 39psi.
Do both tyres across the axle have similar tread depths? - Yes, tyres are rotated regularly and all 4 are almost identical in depth at the moment.

Should I be concerned about the recent increase in rake from 30mm to 35mm?

Thanks again,
John

Hi John,

Thank you for thr replies.
1. 5mm settling of the front springs down to EBH 560mm is nothing to worry about.
2. The increases in rake angle from 30mm to 35mm could be playing a part. Recently I removed 100kg of load from the rear cargo area and my rear EBH has increased 10mm to 595mm so I now have a 30-35mm rake angle and I have had an increase in unwanted ASTC activations particularly on tight left hand exits from driveways where I cross a spoon drain. I am reconsidering my current help thought that the Challenger can tolerated up to a 40mm rake angle. I have a solution in mind but I need to do some testing over the next few weeks.
3. Interesting that it does not do it in 4H, this could indicate it is ABS or the TC control cutting in and not the ASC, 39psi is quite high for the loads you have on board and this could be causing or contributing to your problem. The tyres foot print will be smaller at 39psi than it is at lower pressures so it will take less weight transfer off the tyre before the tyre loses contact with the road. Why not try 34psi all round and see if there is an improvement and then try again at 36psi.
4. When the car is parked on a level surface what is the gap between the droop stop which is mounted on the upper control arm and the fixed chassis extension where the droop stop contacts?
5. Does the car still do it when you have ASC selected "OFF"?

OJ.

[Ent]

I notice over active ESC with steeper rake and muddies. I think is only happens on downhill corners. My heights are very similar to what have been posted.

[Onyx]

Hi OJ

The gap between the droop stop and chassis extension is approx. 10mm.

The car doesn't do it when the ASC is turned off.

A week or so ago we drove from Jindabyne to Geehi and Scammell Spur - all tar. The car had no load apart from passengers (two adults and two small children) and the car did it regularly from Dead Horse Gap to Tom Groggin until I flicked it to 4h halfway down and its stopped doing it. Once go to Tom Groggin I switched back to 2h and switched the ASC to see if it would do it, and I couldn't get it to it for the rest of the drive.

It does it both with the OPATIIs and the Hankook MTs.

I'll try it will lower tyre pressures in the coming days to see what happens.

Thanks again OJ.
John

[old Jack]

Hi OJ

The gap between the droop stop and chassis extension is approx. 10mm.

The car doesn't do it when the ASC is turned off.

A week or so ago we drove from Jindabyne to Geehi and Scammell Spur - all tar. The car had no load apart from passengers (two adults and two small children) and the car did it regularly from Dead Horse Gap to Tom Groggin until I flicked it to 4h halfway down and its stopped doing it. Once go to Tom Groggin I switched back to 2h and switched the ASC to see if it would do it, and I couldn't get it to it for the rest of the drive.

It does it both with the OPATIIs and the Hankook MTs.

I'll try it will lower tyre pressures in the coming days to see what happens.

Thanks again OJ.
John

Hi John,

Thanks for the detailed feedback.

10mm gap between droop stop is ideal .
I know the road you are talking about and it is steep, narrow and windy so 2500kgs of loads 4wd is quite a hand full.
Once you have checked with lower tyre pressures and had the G/Yaw Rate and Steering sensors check calibrated, if it is still happening then we can look at the next option. It is just a theory/thought/idea at this stage, so I will start giving it more serious brain power allocation.


OJ.

[whereswes]

Hi OJ

The gap between the droop stop and chassis extension is approx. 10mm.

The car doesn't do it when the ASC is turned off.

A week or so ago we drove from Jindabyne to Geehi and Scammell Spur - all tar. The car had no load apart from passengers (two adults and two small children) and the car did it regularly from Dead Horse Gap to Tom Groggin until I flicked it to 4h halfway down and its stopped doing it. Once go to Tom Groggin I switched back to 2h and switched the ASC to see if it would do it, and I couldn't get it to it for the rest of the drive.

It does it both with the OPATIIs and the Hankook MTs.

I'll try it will lower tyre pressures in the coming days to see what happens.

Thanks again OJ.
John

Not sure if it helps but the ESC engages on my setup always when nose diving into a tight left turn.

I'm probably up a tad higher in EBH and also up a tire size over stock. Like you, in 4wdH, no issues, or the ESC off, no issues.

I religiously drive with ESC off unless a really wet and greasy day. Reason being is that my daily drive consists of a few uncontrolled heavily trafficked T intersections and the difference in take off with the wheels more than 1/2 way into the turning circle, left or right, is phenomenal! At first I thought it was turbo spool or deliberate programmed accelerated lag, but no, it's mostly ESC at better than 1/2 way into the turning circle.

If a G/Yaw Rate and/or Steering sensors calibration (thanks OJ) and can get it sorted, I'll be wrapped for both you and me

In the interim, I've just accepted that I've changed the geometry of the vehicle beyond it's programmable parameters of what is "Normal" and accepted/adjusted accordingly.

Cheers
Wes

[Onyx]

Update

Just a bit of an update following some more experimenting and the service:

- I've been able to set off the stability control while in 4h under the same conditions (i.e. same corner and similar levels of giving it a boot full) as 2h - but not with the ASC turned off.

- Dropping the tyre pressures don't seem to make a difference.

- Coming home from Bunnings with 200kg in the back (Front EHB 565mm; rear EBH 580mm) in the same corner (but possibly not quite levels of giving it a boot full) and it didn't do it.

- through flat corners the amount of body roll is similar turning left or right for the same speed, and the ASC doesn't activate.

While not particularly scientific, its been informative.

Car had a service today and the steering angle sensor recalibrated by the dealer. It seems to have made no difference. Going through my test corner on the way home from the service set off the stability control first go.

I didn't get the G/yaw sensor recalibrated so that I could separate the two in case I have the problem in the future I can may be narrow it down. When I get time, I'll follow up with the dealer.

I'll drive it for a few weeks to see what it does over a longer time period before I do anything else - we are doing a short trip over Easter, so that may yield more info and thoughts. I'm still not happy with the 'softening up' of the front over the last 4+ months and feel its a contributing factor, but likely not the only one.