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Where the rubber hits the road. Discussion about drive train; (locking) diffs; wheels; hubs; suspension and, of course, tyres

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  #11  
Old 1 Week Ago
Ian H Ian H is offline
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Good point. I guess in the scheme of things if I'm replacing the rear springs and all the shocks, the extra for new front springs isn't that great.

There's no detail on the invoice from when they were installed, it just says Pedders suspension all round.
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2015 NX GLS, Factory alloy bar, Peders Springs & EFS Shocks, MM Auto Mate, dual batteries with Redarc DC/DC, LRA 58L tank, Safari snorkel, Boo's bash plates (full set), 17" steels with BFG KO2's, Drifta drawers with slide, TPMS, Uniden UH8080S. Infinity caravan and a TVan Firetail.
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  #12  
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Hi Ian,

I do not have technical specifications for King front coils but I suspect the KCRR-34 should give you a ride height of about 530mm +/- 10mm, but this is a best guess. This maybe too high considering you are looking for a rear height of 530mm and once you consider the weight transfer off the front axle when the Tvan is hooked up..
The KCRS-34 should give you a ride height of about 510mm +/-10mm based on the modest extra weight you have on the front.


Your normal rear axle weights are heavy at 1680kgs and this is not with full fuel, any extra load in the cargo area, back seat, any towball loads or front axle weight transfer.

Rear Axle load limit is 1780kg going from MMAL's brochure so this only gives you 100kg to play with.I believe the rear axle weight limits are based on the coils fitted and not on brakes because you can tow a 750kg unbraked trailer. Not based on engine power, gearbox or drive line strength because you can tow up to 3000kg with a GCM of 6030kg. Even the passenger construction tyres have more than enough theoretical load capacity!

With the caravan ball load with a correctly adjusted WDH is 200kg so that is 1880 kg rear axle weight.

With the Tvan 160kg ball load plus roughly 62kg of front axle weight transfer totals 242kg.

No wonder the Peddar rear coils are a bit saggy!

It would be worthwhile hooking either or both the Tvan and Caravan up(with WDH) and confirming the front and rear axle weights, measuring the ride heights front and rear, with only 5 psi in the airbags.

I am thinking that even the KCRR-35EHD rear coils alone may not be strong enough for your weights without any airbag assistance.
My calculations are;
Ride height 550mm +/-5mm with 1630kg rear axle weight

Ride height 540mm +/- 5mm with 1690kg rear axle weight.
Ride height 530mm +/- 5mm with 1760kgrear axle weight.
Ride height 520mm +/- 5mm with 1850kg rear axle weight.

My calculations are based on the spring manufacturers specifications that can vary by up to 7% and I cannot compensate for the uneven compression of the coils due to the radial/arc movement of the suspension arm but this is minimal since 50 mm change in ride height equals about 25mm to 30mm of spring compression so the coils normally work within a very small travel range. Also it assumes that the coil insulators are in good condition and not worn.

I have looked at all other rear coils from Kings, OME, Dobinson and Lovells and none of these are going to give you the conservative ride heights you desire for the weights you want to carry.

Chances are your lower coil insulators will be also stuffed so factor in a set of PolyTuff lower insulators.


OJ.
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2011 PB Base White Auto, Smartbar, Cooper STMaxx LT235/85R-16,TPMS, HR TB, 3 x Bushskinz, front +40mm Dobinson , rear +50mm EHDVR Lovells, Dobinson MT struts and shockers, Peddars 5899 cone springs, Windcheater rack, GME UHF, Custom alloy drawer system inc. 30lt Engel & 2 x 30 AH LiFePo batteries + elec controls, Tailgate hi-lift/long struts, Nightbreaker +130LB & Phillips +100 HB, Lightforce 20" single row driving beam LED lightbar, Scanguage II.
MM4x4 Auto Mate, Serial No 1 .
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  #13  
Old 1 Week Ago
Ian H Ian H is offline
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Many thanks for the detailed response OJ. I'll factor that in and discuss with my mechanic.

I did a weigh bridge test with the WDH off and then on while the van was hooked up and the results were amazing.

With the van attached and no WDH, the rear was 1840, which is over the allowance. Attach the hitch and the rear went back to 1680, a reduction of 160kg which made it legal again. Of the 160kg reduction, 100kg went to the front axle and 60 the van axle, all well within the limits.

Since I did those measurements, I've taken out the heavy Titan drawers (70kg unloaded !) and put in a set from Drifta at half the weight. I also try not to carry too much fuel in the reserve tank unless I need it on a longer trip so another 50kg or so can be saved in most cases.

Interestingly, the measurements the mechanic uses are from the top of the guard to the bottom of the wheel rim, going past the central point of the hub. He reckons ride height for the spring he wants to use (KCRR-35HD) should be 775 on the reat for a 17"wheel. Mine are just slightly less than that at the moment.

I really appreciate the input.
Lots to consider and I don't want to get it wrong this time.
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2015 NX GLS, Factory alloy bar, Peders Springs & EFS Shocks, MM Auto Mate, dual batteries with Redarc DC/DC, LRA 58L tank, Safari snorkel, Boo's bash plates (full set), 17" steels with BFG KO2's, Drifta drawers with slide, TPMS, Uniden UH8080S. Infinity caravan and a TVan Firetail.
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  #14  
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Ian H Ian H is offline
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Another option I've been considering is to remove the LRA aux tank (58L) and replace the main tank with the poly ARB version. It would reduce my fuel carrying capacity from 146L to 128L but it would remove the extra weight from behind the rear axle. I don't often need the full 146L and I could carry a 20L jerry of fuel if required.

Wouldn't be cheap to do but I could sell the LRA tank and defray some of the cost at least.
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2015 NX GLS, Factory alloy bar, Peders Springs & EFS Shocks, MM Auto Mate, dual batteries with Redarc DC/DC, LRA 58L tank, Safari snorkel, Boo's bash plates (full set), 17" steels with BFG KO2's, Drifta drawers with slide, TPMS, Uniden UH8080S. Infinity caravan and a TVan Firetail.
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  #15  
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Comments in "blue text" in your post below.


OJ



Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian H View Post
Many thanks for the detailed response OJ. I'll factor that in and discuss with my mechanic.

I did a weigh bridge test with the WDH off and then on while the van was hooked up and the results were amazing.
I am not surprised!

With the van attached and no WDH, the rear was 1840, which is over the allowance. Attach the hitch and the rear went back to 1680, a reduction of 160kg which made it legal again. Of the 160kg reduction, 100kg went to the front axle and 60 the van axle, all well within the limits.
I thought the van had a 200kg ball load, if so the rear axle load load should have increased to about 260-280kg? Not sure why you only got a 160kg rear axle weight increase???
Did you check the caravan ball weight on the weighbridge.

Since I did those measurements, I've taken out the heavy Titan drawers (70kg unloaded !) and put in a set from Drifta at half the weight. I also try not to carry too much fuel in the reserve tank unless I need it on a longer trip so another 50kg or so can be saved in most cases.
Every Kg counts particularly if it is rearwards of the rear axle.

Interestingly, the measurements the mechanic uses are from the top of the guard to the bottom of the wheel rim, going past the central point of the hub. He reckons ride height for the spring he wants to use (KCRR-35HD) should be 775 on the rear for a 17"wheel. Mine are just slightly less than that at the moment.
Yes, some people use the bottom of the rim but the correct method is centre of rim. A 17" rim is actually bigger than 17" when measures across the rim maximum diameter it is 18" or 460mm! So you need to minus 230mm off the under rim measurement to get a standard ride height measurement, therefore the 775mm is adjusted back to 545mm when measured from the centre of the rim.

The KCRR-35HD is a coil we had fitted and load tested in Pajero 12's NW

At ride height 540mm +/-5mm we weighed 1350kg and my calculations were 1430kg.
At ride height 520mm +/-5mm we weighed 1550kg and my calculations were 1490kg.
At ride height 520mm +/-5mm we weighed 1650kg and my calculations where 1555kg.

Reason for my calculations being out is I can only calculate the spring forces when the coils is evenly compressed and I have to assume the rate of spring rate change of the progressive design is lineal. Actual installed in vehicle load tests are the only to really know what results you will get.

Either way my concern is the 35HD are going to be too light for your application. If you are not happy with the results will your mechanic change them over free of charge, since he is so sure of the ride height outcome?
I really appreciate the input.
Lots to consider and I don't want to get it wrong this time.
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2011 PB Base White Auto, Smartbar, Cooper STMaxx LT235/85R-16,TPMS, HR TB, 3 x Bushskinz, front +40mm Dobinson , rear +50mm EHDVR Lovells, Dobinson MT struts and shockers, Peddars 5899 cone springs, Windcheater rack, GME UHF, Custom alloy drawer system inc. 30lt Engel & 2 x 30 AH LiFePo batteries + elec controls, Tailgate hi-lift/long struts, Nightbreaker +130LB & Phillips +100 HB, Lightforce 20" single row driving beam LED lightbar, Scanguage II.
MM4x4 Auto Mate, Serial No 1 .
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  #16  
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Ian H Ian H is offline
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Thanks again mate.

Sorry for the confusion on the rear weights but it was at a different time from when I did the test with the hitch on and off. Probably due to different loads of fuel and what I had in the car. The WDH test was one I did just to see what difference it made and I wasn't so concerned about what weight I had in the car.

Having said that, I'm not sure how accurate the weigh bridge is. They are made for trucks which weigh a lot more than the Paj and I really doubt thye towball weight measurement to be accurate to within a few kgs. I think they have a tolerance of 20kg and then an allowance for variation.

I'm arranging a bulk weigh day for our 4WD club in October where the guy has scales to within 5oog. We'll do a number of cars for $30/car so I'll have a good idea after that.

I've spent quite a bit at the weigh bridge !
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2015 NX GLS, Factory alloy bar, Peders Springs & EFS Shocks, MM Auto Mate, dual batteries with Redarc DC/DC, LRA 58L tank, Safari snorkel, Boo's bash plates (full set), 17" steels with BFG KO2's, Drifta drawers with slide, TPMS, Uniden UH8080S. Infinity caravan and a TVan Firetail.
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  #17  
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All the actual weights we measured where using a set of 4 vehicle scales.

OJ.
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2011 PB Base White Auto, Smartbar, Cooper STMaxx LT235/85R-16,TPMS, HR TB, 3 x Bushskinz, front +40mm Dobinson , rear +50mm EHDVR Lovells, Dobinson MT struts and shockers, Peddars 5899 cone springs, Windcheater rack, GME UHF, Custom alloy drawer system inc. 30lt Engel & 2 x 30 AH LiFePo batteries + elec controls, Tailgate hi-lift/long struts, Nightbreaker +130LB & Phillips +100 HB, Lightforce 20" single row driving beam LED lightbar, Scanguage II.
MM4x4 Auto Mate, Serial No 1 .

Last edited by old Jack; 1 Week Ago at 05:39 PM.
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  #18  
Old 2 Days Ago
Ian H Ian H is offline
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So just to finish this thread off, I got the new springs and Konis fitted today. Firstly, all the knocking noise from the previous shockers has gone and the ride is very good.

I got some new insulators, top and bottom from Polytuff, who were great in sending them down by express post.

The end result is a new ride height at the back of 560mm (30mm increase) and the front at much the same as it was, 530mm (+10mm).

My worry about getting in to the garage was put to rest, it gets in OK, even with a low fuel level. I just need to lengthen the bracket on the car awning to drop it down a bit more.

The shockers were only 18 months old (EFS) so I wouldn't recommend them. Since I had to change all the springs as well, which were the same age and not any problem, I have a set of Pedders for sale cheap, which I'll put in the appropriate section.

Thanks again OJ for your help, it's been greatly appreciated.
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2015 NX GLS, Factory alloy bar, Peders Springs & EFS Shocks, MM Auto Mate, dual batteries with Redarc DC/DC, LRA 58L tank, Safari snorkel, Boo's bash plates (full set), 17" steels with BFG KO2's, Drifta drawers with slide, TPMS, Uniden UH8080S. Infinity caravan and a TVan Firetail.
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  #19  
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Hi Ian,

No problems with the assistance.

Can you please post your spring part numbers so I can check how close my calculations are in real life. This feedback provides validation of my theoretical calculations.


OJ.
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2011 PB Base White Auto, Smartbar, Cooper STMaxx LT235/85R-16,TPMS, HR TB, 3 x Bushskinz, front +40mm Dobinson , rear +50mm EHDVR Lovells, Dobinson MT struts and shockers, Peddars 5899 cone springs, Windcheater rack, GME UHF, Custom alloy drawer system inc. 30lt Engel & 2 x 30 AH LiFePo batteries + elec controls, Tailgate hi-lift/long struts, Nightbreaker +130LB & Phillips +100 HB, Lightforce 20" single row driving beam LED lightbar, Scanguage II.
MM4x4 Auto Mate, Serial No 1 .
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  #20  
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Ian H Ian H is offline
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Front KCFR34

Rear KCRR35HD

Took it out for a spin on some dirt roads today and really happy.
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2015 NX GLS, Factory alloy bar, Peders Springs & EFS Shocks, MM Auto Mate, dual batteries with Redarc DC/DC, LRA 58L tank, Safari snorkel, Boo's bash plates (full set), 17" steels with BFG KO2's, Drifta drawers with slide, TPMS, Uniden UH8080S. Infinity caravan and a TVan Firetail.
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