Front strut failures

[02-SR5]

I'm currently running Kings Springs with my Bilstien struts. They came pre-assembled.

That is fitted to a new MQ Triton. Don't know if that's relevant.

[bmurray2250]

Bilstein replaced the struts and Zordo's suspension installed them today. Very happy with the service from Bilstein and Zordo's

[old Jack]

Bilstein replaced the struts and Zordo's suspension installed them today. Very happy with the service from Bilstein and Zordo's

Are the top winds of the coils ground flat?
If not I believe you will have the same problem again.

OJ.

[bmurray2250]

Are the top winds of the coils ground flat?
If not I believe you will have the same problem again.

OJ.

The Dobinson coils are grinded flat like the OEM were.

There was 2 importers of Bilstein suspension until 2nd half of 2016. The one in Victoria has sold the business to the one in Sydney as he was retiring. The shocks have some minor differences but almost the same. The new ones are shorter overall by 20mm roughly. The drive is great considering the wauy it was. The old shocks still have heaps of pressure besides the oil coming out.

Service and warranty is a big thing

[old Jack]

The Dobinson coils are grinded flat like the OEM were.

There was 2 importers of Bilstein suspension until 2nd half of 2016. The one in Victoria has sold the business to the one in Sydney as he was retiring. The shocks have some minor differences but almost the same. The new ones are shorter overall by 20mm roughly. The drive is great considering the wauy it was. The old shocks still have heaps of pressure besides the oil coming out.

Service and warranty is a big thing

It would be great if you could measure your front EBH and then jack a front wheel clear of the ground and measure the centre wheel hub to under guard (EBH) again. The 20mm shorter shocker on the front equates to about 40mm of suspension travel and this has got me concerned that the shocker maybe too short. What part number shocker has been used/

OJ.

[PC Challenger]

yer i ditched the billstein front shocks. run dobinsons MRR.

good ride. went softer spring. and adjusted seat to get same hieght.

only good thing about billstien. are there rear shocks are longer then stock

[bmurray2250]

It would be great if you could measure your front EBH and then jack a front wheel clear of the ground and measure the centre wheel hub to under guard (EBH) again. The 20mm shorter shocker on the front equates to about 40mm of suspension travel and this has got me concerned that the shocker maybe too short. What part number shocker has been used/

OJ.

Hi OJ

Sorry for the delay. Measured 60cm from centre of wheel to guard sitting normally. 65cm when jacked up. 50mm movement in up travel

[old Jack]

Hi OJ

Sorry for the delay. Measured 60cm from centre of wheel to guard sitting normally. 65cm when jacked up. 50mm movement in up travel

Thanks BM,

Front EBH of 600mm and droop of 650mm is greater than I have seen, I wonder why?
Are the small shark fin droop stops fitted to the underside if the upper control arm?
What part number is on the Bilstein strut?
Are left and right sides the same?
When the car is parked on level and flat ground, how much gap is there between the droop stop and the chassis protrusion?

OJ.

[old Jack]

A final update and closure (I hope) to my ongoing failure of front Bilstein struts when fitted with Lovells coils.

Quick recap, 3 strut failures in 90,000kms. $ $ $

I had initially thought the problem was only caused by the Lovells coils not being ground flat on the top of the coil so when the strut is assembled the coil puts a slight sidewards loading on the strut shaft which then caused the shocker seal to wear prematurely and score one side of the shaft.

However after removing and disassembling the strut assemblies, testing spring rates and then testing another 3 different coils in the car, I am confident that the standard duty raised Lovells coils I had fitted had too higher a spring rate so rather than the spring compressing the strut was flexing as it already had a sidewards preload. There was significant wear on the bottom bushes of the struts even the strut that was only 30,000km old. I decided to go for Dobinson coils and Mono-tube (no remote reservoir) struts, but after 2 false starts, the first being too high and to hard and the second being too low and soft I ended up with a taller coil with a softer spring rate. Yes it does sound like a Goldilocks story!

The result is an increase in front EBH from 565mm to 570mm using a much softer spring even though it is the same wire diameter but 1 extra turn and a longer free length. The strut has a similar compression dampening rate to the Bilstein but a slgnificantly firmer rebound rate. The results are completely different and there are some pros and some cons.

Pros;
1. An increase in EBH, only 5mm but it really is the maximum I was prepared to go to.
2. Much more comfortable ride on bitumen and on corrugated dirt roads, small bump response/comfort has been greatly improved.
3. Less undesired activation of the ASTC system, I think it is got something to do with the G sensor not being shocked by impact loads.

Cons;
1. Softer spring rate has meant that if I drive as hard in difficult off road conditions I find the front suspension bottoms out. I have to either accept this compromise and slow down or look for different front compression bump stops that activate earlier and are more progressive.

I also changed to rear shockers to Dobinson MT (no remote reservoir) as the Bilsteins had done 100,000kms of hard work, as I am always near, at or above GVM and with the custom EHDVR Lovells coils the Bilsteins were always under dampened in the rebound in some conditions. The Dobinson's are about double the rebound rate so the rear coils are very nicely controlled in most circumstances.
BUT, there is a compromise!
The Dobinsons have a shorter extended length 525mm vs 535mm of the Bilsteins and this combined with a stronger rebound rate, means the suspension is slower to react over severe suspension travel at speed like climbing sand dune wombat holes, so it is possible to run out of rear wheel travel and lift a rear wheel more easily.

4.000kms of off road/outback touring including a Simpson crossing at GVM +150kg and 2,000kms of bitumen and highway driving and I am learning to appreciate the new suspension dynamics. Hopefully I have put an end to my premature front strut failures.

OJ.

[bigdave]

Nice bit of work OJ. Can you find a way to make it an R&D tax deduction?

[Ent]

Hi OJ

Glad you have hopefully sorted out the front end. I agree with you on the rear Bilsteins not damping enough. I have to get mine revalved for a higher spring rate.

Still very impressed by the Drummond Motor Sport front end.

The customer dual wire rate rear springs with the 80 series bump stops works extremely well.

If I can fix the dampening rate of the rear dampener I will be a happy camper. The rate is ok for highway and light gravel driving but in the Simpson dunes it started to pogo. Learnt that you just have to take it slow to avoid the dreaded double and triple humped dunes.

DooSo been retired from commuting duty so has not been driven much lately. Need to fix a few things like trailer lights not working. The heavy mud in the failed Simpson run is starting to catchup with all our vehicles. Brother’s needed new air filter breather for his tank and the 4WD indicator switch died due to mud and water ingress. Another vehicle has strange electrical issues as well.

Must plan another trip. DooSo more a long range cruiser than off-road assault vehicle, but dam impressive if he has to be off-road.

[littleriver]

A final update and closure (I hope) to my ongoing failure of front Bilstein struts when fitted with Lovells coils.

Quick recap, 3 strut failures in 90,000kms. $ $ $

I had initially thought the problem was only caused by the Lovells coils not being ground flat on the top of the coil so when the strut is assembled the coil puts a slight sidewards loading on the strut shaft which then caused the shocker seal to wear prematurely and score one Sid of the shaft.

However after removing and disassembling the strut assemblies, testing spring rates and then testing another 3 different coils in the car, I am confident that the standard duty raised Lovells coils I had fitted had too higher a spring rate so rather than the spring compressing the strut was flexing as it already had a sidewards preload. There was significant wear on the bottom bushes of the struts even the strut that was only 30,000km old. I decided to go for Dobinson coils and Mono-tube (no remote reservoir) struts, but after 2 false starts, the first being too high and to hard and the second being too low and soft I ended up with a taller coil with a softer spring rate. Yes it does sound like a Goldilocks story!

The result is an increase in front EBH from 565mm to 570mm using a much softer spring even though it isthe same wire diameter but 1 extra turn and a longer free length. The strut has a similar compression dampening rate to the Bilstein but a slgnificantly firmer rebound rate. The results are completely different and there are some pros and some cons.

Pros;
1. An increase in EBH, only 5mm but it really is the maximum I was prepared to go to.
2. Much more comfortable ride on bitumen and on corrugated dirt roads, small bump response/comfort has been greatly improved.
3. Less undesired activation of the ASTC system, I think it is got something to do with the G sensor not being shocked by impact loads.

Cons;
1. Softer spring rate has meant that if I drive as hard in difficult off road conditions I find the front suspension bottoms out. I have to either accept this compromise and slow down or look for different front compression bump stops that activate earlier and are more progressive.

I also changed to rear shockers to Dobinson MT (no remote reservoir) as the Bilsteins had done 100,000kms of hard work, as I am always near, at or above GVM and with the custom EHDVR Lovells coils the Bilsteins were always under dampened in the rebound in dome conditions. The Dobinson's are about double the rebound rate so the rear coils are very nicely controlled in most circumstances.
BUT, there is a compromise!
The Dobinsons have a shorter extended length 525mm vs 535mm of the Bilsteins and this combined with a stronger rebound rate, means the suspension is slower to react over severe suspension travel at speed like climbing sane dune wombat holes, so it is possible to run out of rear wheel travel and lift a rear wheel more easily.

4.000kms of off road/outback touring including a Simpson crossing at GVM +150kg and 2,000kms of bitumen and highway driving and I am learning to appreciate the new suspension dynamics. Hopefully I have put an end to my premature front strut failures.

OJ.

put it out there for Oztec shocks ... life time warranty ... ....

oh well next time

....

[old Jack]

Replies in reverse order;

LR, I did look closely at OzTec shockers and spoke to Steve Shepard at length. Their quality is without question and a great warranty, at under $600 for a pair of OzTec front struts with King coils fully assembled and delivered they are the best value for money. A great upgrade over factory suspension for the average recreational 4wder, they will transform the way the Challenger rides and handles both on and off road. However if you want to do hours of endless corrugations at high speed carrying max axle loads, the twin tube shockers dispite being much larger than factory shockers and better valved are simply not up to the task I require.

Ent, I looked at DMS very closely and ended up with "paralysis by analysis" and I left my order too late and could not get them in time for the Simpson trip. Busy work schedule, helping Pajero 12 prepare for his first remote trip, multiple suspension changes on forum members vehicles, testing of Lockup Mate, resulted in my preparations being last minute and something I would highly recommend not be done.
Having different manufacturers of the coils and struts was not desirable after my Bilstein/Lovells experience. Having local backup was critical as it also took 3 different coils trials on vehicle to get the front suspension to an acceptable level of performance. At $1000 a pair they were a good last minute replacement and have learnt a lot more in the process. I will do a separate thread about this subject.
Rear suspension Pogoing! Yes I too have long suffered this in continuos sand dune country at GVM+150kg rear axle weights, the standard Bilsteins have been too lightly valved for the custom Lovells EHDVR coils I use. The Dobinson Mono Tubes are a huge improvement over the Bisteins in this regard, for an off the shelf shocker at $250 a piece you cannot go wrong. They are not perfect but they are very very good.

Big Dave, R&D tax deductions, yes that would great but this is my hobby so I expect to cost me something. Australia is facing increasing debt levels which will cripple the next generations so I am prepared to forgo a few dollars and not add to the financial woes of this great country.

OJ.

[amec]

Hi Challenger Owners,

Spoken to Kierion at Bushskinz and he and his suppliers opinion is that the standard duty Lovells spring is putting a side load on the spring because the top of the spring is not ground flat and it does not sit in the tophat seat squarely and this is flexing the strut. Suggesting changing over to King coils.

Spoke to Lovell's and they have had no reported problems with their struts when fitted with their springs.

Spoke to Brendan at Ultimate, he uses Lovell's springs in their kits. He has not seen this problem before and thinks it maybe either the shocker topping or bottoming out (I have since checked this and they are

OJ.

I had a shock fail after approx 40k km. Scored badly on one side and leaking. I disassembled the shock and the bush it runs through was equally scored. I didnt check it for straightness though. Replaced with another Bilsten for now. I have Lovells HD springs

Next time i might look to another brand. The OME suspenders i put in my Prado 90 series are still strong 110k km later.

[NJV6]

Hi OJ,
A great lot of sleuth work, time and money there to get your results.

Have you looked at the Hydraulic bump stops that could be used to suit your application? I have experienced them once and they were tremendous and are adjustable. The downside was the constant tap tap tapping they made as they made contact but Im sure that could be easily overcome. Haven't looking under the vehicle though to see if its feasible though!

Onto my next question, you love the ride the current combo gives, especially in the front. The lovell/bilstein combo in the front of Pajeros ride nicely on bumps but with small roading imperfections they struggle as the spring doesn't compress to absorb any of it. Any comment on the dobinson set up for this scenario? having said this, the lovell/bilstein combo is at least as good as factory, probably better. With either of the setups, you simply cannot rock the vehicle.

Any comment?