LRA auxiliarytank - more problems

[Nab]

I have an Outback accessories tank, the issue with them is you need to drill about 8holes into the seat compartment in the rear - doesn't bother me but some don't want to do that to their cars.

[sharkcaver]

I have an Outback accessories tank, the issue with them is you need to drill about 8holes into the seat compartment in the rear - doesn't bother me but some don't want to do that to their cars.

You have to drill a few with the long ranger too. LRA doesn't require any extra holes, but if you have a 5 seater without the reinforcing plates, then you will get a few for free.

[MSF]

Interesting comments about Artarmon Automotive..
I've been mates with them since about 1990 and was chatting to Eddie today and asked him his comments...

They certainly do recommend LRA, and in fact it is their first suggested brand for anyone wanting an Aux or Larger replacement tank. (This is what was fitted to my Shorty too).
LRA is Long Range Automotive...... as opposed to The Long Ranger who also make tanks.

I asked about cracking brackets etc and whilst they have not had any problems with any tanks they have fitted and come back to them - he did say he would contact his distributor and call me back to see what they know... They said that the only one that he was aware of was due to a bolt breaking / working loose and that put stress of the other side bracket.. - Not sure if this was the case with either of yours - or it maybe a 3rd occurrence, regardless, it was rectified at no cost to the customer same as yours.

Eddie did say that whilst they have fitted many 81L tanks, the overwhelming majority they they fit are the 58L (although capacity is apparently rated to 60L) due to the rear Air Con unit. He said it is their standard practice to always check the brackets / bolts as part of any service where the vehicle goes on the hoist and for every pre-trip preparation inspection...

[Pwoffey]

I suppose I should round out this thread by reporting that TJM returned my Paj to me last Thursday afternoon - so 2 1/2 days without the car - with a shiny new LRA 81L tank with both right and left rear brackets gusseted on both sides of the bracket. We'll see how it goes.

[sharkcaver]

I suppose I should round out this thread by reporting that TJM returned my Paj to me last Thursday afternoon - so 2 1/2 days without the car - with a shiny new LRA 81L tank with both right and left rear brackets gusseted on both sides of the bracket. We'll see how it goes.

Nice one. Mine took longer than that and I had to supply the labour to remove and refit!

[nj swb]

The LRA tank uses a 4 point mounting system, which doesn't allow for any flex in the mounting points.

The Pajero's monocoque construction, whilst impressively rigid, isn't perfectly rigid - the body will still flex, not huge amounts, but more when it is more heavily loaded. So the four mounting points on the body / monocoque move slightly with respect to each other, and the mounting tabs on the tank can't cope.

Gusseting the tabs will help, but it's addressing the symptoms of the problem, not the root cause. The forward bracket, that screws to the floor under the middle row seats, needs to be re-designed.

[Pwoffey]

Yes, agreed, and I guess all that is what I (and I suspect Sharkcaver) with the heavier 81 L tank and now the gusseted rear brackets and reinforced steel plates on the floor pan for the forward bolts are concerned about. I have wondered if a pad of heavy rubber (maybe 5-8mm thick) on top of the floor pan and underneath the steel reinforcing plates might provide for a little, but not too much, flex. But I'm no engineer . I just have to hope that LRA know what they are doing, and Shane's and my problems are very atypical and won't recur. Like I've said, we'll have to see...

[Jackal]

jackal

Guys, I don't know if this has been raised before...I have a 60 litre Long Ranger fuel tank fitted to m y 2009 NT Pajero. From day one I had issues with fuel being transferred from the rear tank to the front tank.

A couple of visits to the crows who originally fitted my tank didn't resolve the issue. I contacted Long Ranger direct and on inspection, they found that the installer had kinked the hose so much so, that barely any fuel was being transferred.

They removed the kinked hose and immediately I had fuel flowing freely into the front tank. Joy oh joy.

Whilst there I mentioned the frustration I get when trying to fill the front tank from just about any fuel nozzle at any service station--in fact, in my travels I have only ever come across three service stations which fill my front tank without any issues. Drives me insane.

Long Ranger advised that due to the front tank filler pipe being moved forward to accommodate the rear tank, issues can arise with 'surging' or back pressure. Why a couple of service stations don't create any problems the majority do.

So, I now transfer fuel from my back tank into the front tank when the front tank reaches half full so that I usually don't have to put much replacement fuel into the front tank.

Now, when doing this, I have an issue with fuel escaping from the filler flap as the fuel being transferred is going through at a rate of knots. I have just replaced the fuel cap with a new cap ($60 bucks thank you very much) as I suspected the rubber ring may have gone hard. Alas, no difference to the old cap.

Has anyone else had this refilling issue as I can't believe a manufacturer would design a set up this way?

Would greatly appreciate any positive comments please.

Alan.
12.12.17.

[MSF]

Long Ranger advised that due to the front tank filler pipe being moved forward to accommodate the rear tank, issues can arise with 'surging' or back pressure. Why a couple of service stations don't create any problems the majority do.

Most likely has to do with the Vapour Recovery System type used at the servo..

Each servo you use, note the fill rate and then ask if it a VR1 or VR2 type

Mate of mine used to work for Gilbarco and he said that some of the pumps are very sensitive and will prematurely cut off due to the VRS.

[Pwoffey]

Well, its deja vu all over again. Driver's side rear bracket of the 81L LRA tank has sheared along its entire width. Actually it appears not to be the gusseted bracket on the tank but the towbar component that the vertical gusseted bracket is bolted onto. Not sure if the component that has given way is part of the LRA installation kit, or is part of the Mits OEM towbar ??

I have just finished about 6000km through outback NT and SA where the roads are pretty corrugated. Very disappointed yet again in the performance of the tank.

The original installer, TJM, is contacting LRA to see what they say.

[nj swb]

Well, its deja vu all over again. Driver's side rear bracket of the 81L LRA tank has sheared along its entire width. Actually it appears not to be the gusseted bracket on the tank but the towbar component that the vertical gusseted bracket is bolted onto. Not sure if the component that has given way is part of the LRA installation kit, or is part of the Mits OEM towbar ??

I have just finished about 6000km through outback NT and SA where the roads are pretty corrugated. Very disappointed yet again in the performance of the tank.

The original installer, TJM, is contacting LRA to see what they say.

Engineering 101. Make a bracket more rigid to prevent failure, and move the failure point.

[Pwoffey]

Yes, you are of course quite right and you have made that same point before. But for a non-engineer like me, what is the solution? Should the tank supports include some sort of rubber or flexible plastic bush like a shock absorber mount? I wonder how other products have been designed eg Long Ranger?? I am now quite prepared to ditch the LRA tank if I knew there was a better engineered solution; I'm even prepared to forgo the 81L capacity for a smaller tank.

[nj swb]

Yes, you are of course quite right and you have made that same point before. But for a non-engineer like me, what is the solution? Should the tank supports include some sort of rubber or flexible plastic bush like a shock absorber mount? I wonder how other products have been designed eg Long Ranger?? I am now quite prepared to ditch the LRA tank if I knew there was a better engineered solution; I'm even prepared to forgo the 81L capacity for a smaller tank.

Yes, some form of flexible mounts might help to mitigate the effects of the problem, but I still believe it is fundamentally because they use four mounting points where they should be using three. I believe the ultimate solution is to re-design the forward mounting bracket, probably to a two piece design with a pivot point in the middle. Use the same mounting points on the tank, the same mounting points on the vehicle, but use the pivot point to add the extra degree of freedom (of movement) that is currently missing. The pivot point could probably be designed to use some form of suspension bush as you suggest.

[old Jack]

The 2nd photo looks as if the tank is offset to one side of the bracket, is this correct?



Without seeing the side profile of the bracket, I suspect the bend radius on the steel bracket is too tight and the edge of the bracket where the bends are, are not radius-ed. These will cause a stress point and the bracket will crack given enough vibration and time.
A correctly manufactured bracket with a rubber isolating bush should improve longevity but the rubber bush will need to be replaced when it wears or the bracket will break quicker!
The grade of the steel and the method of bending (cold/hot) and any post bending heat treatment or tempering will also influence the brackets ability to survive vibrations.

As "Njswb" stated, make the bracket too strong and you risk cracking the vehicle structure or the tank, both are not good alternative failure points.

Chance are the brackets are just cold bent mild steel so I would be looking at making them from a thinner gauge medium tensile strength steel to provide some ability to flex and have some sort of rubber mounting bush incorporated.

Unfortunately this is trial and error engineering.


OJ.

[Pwoffey]

Thanks OJ. The attachment appears to be: (1) there is a gusseted right angle bracket with its vertical face welded onto the rear-facing vertical side of the tank body. It is silver coloured in the pics. The rearward-facing horizontal projection of this right angled bracket is bolted (one bolt) to (2) a "sub-bracket", coloured black with red/brown outback dust/rust on it. This sub-bracket is bolted onto the side of the OEM tow-bar (adjacent to the tow rings) and (I presume) also bolted further up in a place inaccessible to the eye.


It is not possible to provide a good pic of the profile of the gusseted bracket. I attach 2 more pics in case they help.


I have heard back from LRA (via TJM) that they will supply another sub-bracket to replace the sheared one. Of course how long that will last is anybody's guess. I intend to speak with Roger at LRA myself tomorrow and will canvass your and Scott's engineering ideas. Of course at this stage, it is unlikely that LRA will re-engineer the mounting system for the Paj, especially on the relatively unusual 81L tank that I have.