Auto- Mate for PB/PC Challenger.

[old Jack]

My Challenger has just started a R&D 2 week holiday at MM4x4 for the install and testing of Auto-Mate. Looking forward to getting it back as a test drive in MM's NX Pajero with Auto-Mate was very impressive.

OJ.

[Stoneman]

My Challenger has just started a R&D 2 week holiday at MM4x4 for the install and testing of Auto-Mate. Looking forward to getting it back as a test drive in MM's NX Pajero with Auto-Mate was very impressive.

OJ.

It surprises me how you wouldn't recommend a chip as a modification but you would this

locking the gear box out of its normal characteristics could be asking for trouble IMO

would be interesting what the long term affects would be.

[nj swb]

It surprises me how you wouldn't recommend a chip as a modification but you would this

locking the gear box out of its normal characteristics could be asking for trouble IMO

I wouldn't characterise it as that.

Auto-mate uses the sport mode input to request a gear that will allow the torque converter to remain locked. It requests gear changes, but ultimately the factory programming decides whether or not to make the change, and will over-ride to down change gears if it feels it should.

Long term effect? Yes, it will keep the torque converter locked more. Will that have a material effect on clutches and brakes in the transmission? Only time will tell.

[m_and_m]

would be interesting what the long term affects would be.

A longer lasting transmission and fuel savings

[Dicko1]

A longer lasting transmission and fuel savings

Agree. Had a long (3 hour haul) up a 4wd trail towing my camper. The lockup kit was worth its weight in gold. Just need to get the 2nd gear issue sorted when available.

[Stoneman]

time will tell,
it would be the internals of the box that would worry me more than the small fuel savings on the minimal times it would be used

at least with my chip I decide what power to feed it and to date its the best mod I done with enormous power gains and fuel economy.

[littleriver]

time will tell,
it would be the internals of the box that would worry me more than the small fuel savings on the minimal times it would be used

at least with my chip I decide what power to feed it and to date its the best mod I done with enormous power gains and fuel economy.

what chip you running again ? ...

...

[Stoneman]

what chip you running again ? ...

...

Unichip

[old Jack]

It surprises me how you wouldn't recommend a chip as a modification but you would this

locking the gear box out of its normal characteristics could be asking for trouble IMO

would be interesting what the long term affects would be.

Hi Nick,

Many times I have looked closely at both an engine chip/tune and fitting a TC lockup on my Challenger since new but have always been concerned about the effects on warranty and longevity of the torque convertor. The fact that Mitsubishi choose to limit the engine torque from 400Nm down to 350Nm if a clear indication the TC is the weak link in the system. Research into to mechanicals of the 5 speed Jatco trans, which has been used on various vehicles including earlier Pajero's, and the only common issue I can find is with internal pins coming loose and TC's failing with people that towed heavy and had first generation TC lockup kits without PWM control fitted. Mitsubishi decided to increase the stall ratio of the TC fitted to the Jatco from 1.61:1 to 2.04:1, this is a very high slip TC so the torque multiplication effect is huge. I suspect it is related to over coming the flat spot/turbo lag of the 4D56 CRD engine at low rpm and the 3,000kg towing limit. Unfortunately high slip means high ATF temps and this means a rapid decrease in the performance of the ATF and extra loads on the internals of the torque convertor.

Where MM4x4's Lockup-Mate is different to other TC lockup mod kits is, it is speed, accelerator pedal position and load sensitive, and does not bypass the in built factory protections of the AT ECU. Long term negative effects are unknown, if there are any, but certainly not cooking the ATF, reducing engine load so coolant and inlet temps are lower and protecting the torque convertor are all positive gains that I can see straight away. The increase in duty cycle of the dampener clutch solenoid may shorten its life but the cost of this is surely offset by the aforementioned benifets and one I am prepared to take.

In another year or 2 my Challenger is out of its 10 year/160,000km engine and driveline warranty so who knows I might even give a chip or a tune a go if I want more power and torque. Never say never!

OJ.

[Stoneman]

Hi Nick,

Many times I have looked closely at both an engine chip/tune and fitting a TC lockup on my Challenger since new but have always been concerned about the effects on warranty and longevity of the torque convertor. The fact that Mitsubishi choose to limit the engine torque from 400Nm down to 350Nm if a clear indication the TC is the weak link in the system. Research into to mechanicals of the 5 speed Jatco trans, which has been used on various vehicles including earlier Pajero's, and the only common issue I can find is with internal pins coming loose and TC's failing with people that towed heavy and had first generation TC lockup kits without PWM control fitted. Mitsubishi decided to increase the stall ratio of the TC fitted to the Jatco from 1.61:1 to 2.04:1, this is a very high slip TC so the torque multiplication effect is huge. I suspect it is related to over coming the flat spot/turbo lag of the 4D56 CRD engine at low rpm and the 3,000kg towing limit. Unfortunately high slip means high ATF temps and this means a rapid decrease in the performance of the ATF and extra loads on the internals of the torque convertor.

Where MM4x4's Lockup-Mate is different to other TC lockup mod kits is, it is speed, accelerator pedal position and load sensitive, and does not bypass the in built factory protections of the AT ECU. Long term negative effects are unknown, if there are any, but certainly not cooking the ATF, reducing engine load so coolant and inlet temps are lower and protecting the torque convertor are all positive gains that I can see straight away. The increase in duty cycle of the dampener clutch solenoid may shorten its life but the cost of this is surely offset by the aforementioned benifets and one I am prepared to take.

In another year or 2 my Challenger is out of its 10 year/160,000km engine and driveline warranty so who knows I might even give a chip or a tune a go if I want more power and torque. Never say never!

OJ.

I'm pretty sure MM would not cover anything with a lockup mate installed but your welcome to test them.

I don't see how your protecting anything. Actually the opposite as your putting strain on parts not designed for that type of work, gear changes, braking etc. especially if your towing!
I know you have been fixated on the torque converter for many many years now though.

Tuners have been increasing power of factory engines for years with no issues at all as you would know air fuel ratios are out just to meet emission standards.

I still think some of you guys would of been better with a manual though

[m_and_m]

I don't see how your protecting anything. Actually the opposite as your putting strain on parts not designed for that type of work, gear changes, braking etc. especially if your towing!

Quite the opposite. Locking the torque converter clutch (TCC) reduces the torque through the transmission because when the TCC is locked the torque multiplication effect is removed. The factory ECU will lock the TCC at full torque (e.g. 3rd gear full power), so it's capable of the load. Makes no difference to brakes.
As for not protecting anything, many a transmission is rebuilt because of failed transmission oil, and the key cause of failure is excessive heat.

I know you have been fixated on the torque converter for many many years now though.

I think you need to drive a Challenger to know why OJ has been fixated on the torque converter. The car's performance without it is far far better. Transformed.

The NS responds very well to a lockup-mate as well. See this post.

The first NS test car is owned by an engine tuner - for racing cars..and Pajeros. He said it transformed his car when towing, and he's been referring his customer to me for a lockup-kit since.

So lockup-mate:
1. reduces the transmission oil temperature to protect it
2. can improve the engine braking
3. improves the drivability of the vehicle
4. and saves fuel as a side effect.

And you get manual gearbox like performance with gear changes smoother and fast than a manual. Why would we want a manual?

[old Jack]

Well my Challenger is back after 2 weeks with Marshall and is fitted with a test version of Auto-Mate. Interestingly Marshall said that programing Lockup Mate was easy on the Challenger and hard on the Gen 4 Pajero but the opposite for Auto-Mate, it has been quite a task!

On Saturday afternoon I drove a 100ish km test loop with Marshall with his MUTT connected, down through the southern suburbs, up Willunga Hill which is one of the steepest and longest hills we have in the SA metro area with a 110kph speed limit, then back to the CBD via the hills and the SE freeway. Auto-Mate is a big improvement on the factory AT control but it is not as good as Lockup-Mate because Auto-Mate is reactive to changing drive conditions rather than proactive as Lockup-Mate has the predictive driver input in advance of changing conditions. This is particularly noticeable if you are having a drive rather than a cruise.

On Sunday I did a 225km trip down to the Fleurieu Peninsula, via the suburbs, southern expressway, country undulating and hilly roads, twisty and hilly back dirt roads then returning the same way. This reaffirmed my initial impressions from the Saturday drive, that Auto-Mate provides a more responsive drive than the factory AT program in either "Drive" or "Semi Manual Sport" when driven at a conservative to moderate pace. The gear up changes are not as silky smooth as the factory unlocked TC or as smooth as a correctly timed up change with Lockup-Mate but smoother than an incorrectly timed gear change with Lockup-Mate. Down changes are good and there is very minimal shift hunting between gears as the load varies, also as the TC is locked you can feel the additional engine braking on deceleration. Up the pace and the Auto-Mate gear changes are as good as Lockup-Mate but the timing of up and down gear changes is reactive to programming rather than reactive to proactive driver input so I prefer the extra control and engine braking I get from using Lockup-Mate. Gone is the highly reactive down change and the TC unlocking that resulted in high rpm and loss of drive when accelerating out of corners or up hills, as is the over reliance on the brakes when slowing down. It is highly unlikely that anyone wanting to have a more spirited drive would use Auto-Mate over Lockup-Mate as Auto-Mate has the Lockup-Mate function availble just by using the paddle shifts or manual shift of the gear selector.

Today I did my normal 12km commute each way to work and back using Auto-Mate, through suburban morning and evening traffic. A more satisfiying drive than using the factory program in "D" as Auto-Mate prevents the early up changes and late down changes of the factory program. 5th gear does not engage until to 75kph so the engine does not labour at 60kph in 5th, 4th gear up change is at 55kph so you are in 3rd with the TC locked up at 50kph therefore the engine is more responsive. On deceleration the trans drops down to 2nd TC locked and does not change back to 1st TC unlocked until you are almost stopped so less braking is required when coming to a stop. Timing of the up change, at low to medium accelerator pedal position, from 2nd to 3rd still needs some more fine tuning so this weekend I will fit a voltmeter to the accelerator pedal sender unit so I can accurately record accelerator position and work with Marshall on this gear change profile over the next few weeks.

Hopefully in 2 weeks time we will start doing tow tests, after all this was the original reason for the development of Lockup-Mate and Auto-Mate.

OJ.

[pb4x2]

Hi OJ,
Thank you for the update.

[m_and_m]

Thanks for the summary OJ.


I'd be interested to hear from owners who already have Lockup-mate installed. I've found the timing (ie RPM & amount of pedal) when you choose to change gears (locked and using SPORT mode) makes a big difference in OJ's challenger on how smooth the gear change is.
I'm curious if this is normal for the Challenger or a bit unique to his particular car.

The Pajero, by contrast, has much smoother gear changes - hence why the challenger has been trickier to tune to get nicer gear changes.

[old Jack]

I am getting email and PM inquiries on AM8 progress, so here is an up to date report;


I have had Auto-Mate fitted for 3 weeks (about 1,500kms) so it is early days, the prototype program is for on-road and not towing, and is pretty good but it does need so fine tuning in my opinion. I have tested it in the city, suburbs, freeway/expressway, country driving and hills and it is far better than either the factory "Drive" or "Sports Mode" but it is not as good as LM8 (if operated correctly), especially when driving through the hills and want a performance drive experience, and it cannot be because it is reactive to conditions that have already occurred rather than reactive to driver command.



Hopefully I will catch up with Marshall for a "drive and tow test afternoon" this weekend, where we can make the final adjustments to the on-road mode and commence tow testing. Tow testing will be with 1800kg dual axle trailer through city/suburbs, freeway/expressway, hills and country roads. We will also need another day to do the off-road calibration for low range if we think having an Auto-Mate Off-road function is worthwhile.


We both have full-time jobs that require 50 to 70 hours a week and some interstate/overseas travel, then try to slot in some family commitments to keep the families happy and we run out of 1/2 day blocks which we need for testing and validation.

The programing of Lockup Mate was much easier than Auto-Mate for the Challenger/Triton according to Marshal. Where as the Gen 4 Pajero was the opposite way and Marshal is still trying to sort some issues out with Lockup Mate but Auto Mate is fantastic in the Gen 4.

Can we finish testing by the end of August???

Maybe, if all goes well.


Regards, OJ.