Increase Ball weight for Towing Victoria EOI Gen 4 Pajero

[Yugi]

Hello Jim - well done officially and hopefully by your own hand on retirement. Stating the obvious but balancing parameters for the Pajero and a van is a learning curve for me and no doubt everyone who wasn't born an expert or had the great use of this forum as help. I ave to confess as being an accesory addict for my Paj and now as my direction has swung towards buying a van the chickens have come home to roost so to speak. Need to remove some bits & pieces off the car to allow for the van. The van will be a New Age Manta Ray 16 footer with a 2.5t ATM and about 2t tare. So some of your ideas might be of value for me in terms of a new van build. On topic for the 3,110GVM after some research here and there and also thanks to Rory (Faerag) & Peter N on this forum - Climax Suspension from NSW has done a tow ball upgrade. Have emailed them to clarify if this would also be certifying a GVM upgrade as well. On their Facebook site they comment they have submitted relevant docs to authorities and await the decision for Vicroads. Climax aims to have certified Vic dstributers to fit these kits for the TB upgrade so we need to see if there is a GVM upgrade with it.

[Jimbo2]

Hi Jim,

1. Reducing weight forward of the axle is a good thing, but what weight can you remove totally?
I think this is the best solution, as it addresses the stability issue on several levels,. This has been a topic of much research for me, seems the heavy is strong mentality is alive and well in the caravan industry even the guys that build composite vans overbuild them. My aimed tare weight is 2000kg, which at just under 20' excludes almost every manufacturer in Australia. Yet in Europe its the normal.
The independent suspensions we use here also add even more weight, and possiby are less stable. (a google search reveals a few technical articles on this)
2. Moving weight back towards the axle is the next best thing. Yes things like the front tank, Batteries, and other stuff that can go in the centre, if you can find a cupboard to fit it in.
3. Relocating weight rear of the rear axle increases the yaw and pitch as it decreases dynamic stability so this is not a good thing. In my opinion more dangerous than slightly exceeding the towball down load. Personally I think having the tow ball weight right is important, and one way or the other weight at the back has to balance weight at the front, and there is no way around it short of cramming everything above the axle (if there was even room). Even shifting axle position is effectively the same solution.
4. Moving the axle forward even 40mm may not be that straight forward. Depends on the set up, certainly not impossible, biggest problem is the wheel box.

OJ.

Jim

[Jimbo2]

. The van will be a New Age Manta Ray 16 footer with a 2.5t ATM and about 2t tare. So some of your ideas might be of value for me in terms of a new van build. On topic for the 3,110GVM after some research here and there and also thanks to Rory (Faerag) & Peter N on this forum - Climax Suspension from NSW has done a tow ball upgrade. Have emailed them to clarify if this would also be certifying a GVM upgrade as well. On their Facebook site they comment they have submitted relevant docs to authorities and await the decision for Vicroads. Climax aims to have certified Vic dstributers to fit these kits for the TB upgrade so we need to see if there is a GVM upgrade with it.

Thanks tor the acknowledgement Yugi,
Good luck with putting it all together, like most things there is always more than one solution, and its important to have the solution that works for you.

Retirement for us is a team effort, we have both contributed in different ways, and lady luck has stepped in a couple of times as well to stop me making the odd bad decision.

[old Jack]

This is worth looking at, it demonstrates the issues with shifting the weight from the towball to the rear of the trailer.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=i2fkOVHAC8Q

OJ.

[Jimbo2]

Hello old Jack,
Yes Ive seen this one before, there is another more scientific test where they load up the front too much as well to determine the "ideal" ball weight range, which I recall was determined to be 5-7% of GVM. Pretty much what is used in Europe.
I cant find the actual clip of the research, but this Bailey video clearly shows the effect of adding weight at the front. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9P0ajgaZgDg

[Faereag]

Hi Jimbo

Shifting the aircon does help a bit.

I replaced all cupboard doors and drawer faces with Tasmanian Cedar. It saved me about 85 Kg in total over the much heavier MDF panels that were standard in our build.

Be careful with moving too much weight to the rear. It does reduce the static Ball weight, but whilst in motion it results in higher lateral G forces if the van starts to way. I found just placing a 38 Kg generator in a binnacle at the left-hand rear of my van produced a notable increased tendency to sway.

Using Lithium batteries if feasible under the sink reduced weight markedly and their smaller size increases location possibilities. I also opted for a shorter awning. 12" really does make a difference!

In my situation, the 300 Kg tow-ball allowance has allowed me to go with between 250 Kg and 270 Kg on the tow-ball. This has been by far the best result in my case as meeting the 180 Kg limit was a tiresome exercise and the tug/tow combo never felt entirely "right". Now it does. Even with 2900 Kg (extra water in the tanks), for a short time, the Paj has no problem handling the load and it felt safe and secure.

I would strongly recommend pursuing the tow-ball upgrade option if at all possible. You never know when a new player might come in to the market.

[FraserCoastBob]

Increase ball weight - Queensland

I'm also looking at increasing the ball weight.

Even 250kg would be worthwhile.

I'm towing a 19'-6" Majestic. The last time we put it over the weighbridge, we had 2900kg ATM, 2750 kg GTM and 150kg ball weight.

It tows nicely at those weights, but it is a real pain trying to keep things appropriately located in the van. We have to keep the front boot and tunnel boot fairly light, with the majority of the heavy items under the bunks above the wheels. Fortunately we have the water tanks split, one in front of the axles, the other behind.

Anyway, I have contacted Climax Suspensions but they cannot help with a Qld registered vehicle.

So does any know of anyone in Qld who can do the upgrade, or better yet, has anyone had their Qld Pajero upgraded? Legally!

BTY, mine is a MY11 NT diesel.

[Faereag]

Thanks Yugi for the reminder,
I haven't been on the forum for a while, Ive gone into retirement (still do a day a week) consequently I'm busier than I have ever been, and have difficulty finding time to work even that one day!

The situation is that trying to get an engineer to look at this is like getting your kids to take out the rubbish, plenty of agreement to do something, but no action.
I've given up and and have thought of several alternate strategies, not all are going to sit well with some members here.

So they are:
Idea #1 Shift the axles forward, as it turns out with a quick calculation for a 20' van shows you would need a shift of axle position about 40mm to lighten the ball weight by 20Kg
Idea #2 Add a generator to the rear Bumper Approx 18kg with box
Idea #3 Shift front water tank to between axles- Good for loaded weight
Idea # 4 Have van built with aircon further back on Roof
Idea # 5 If Hot water service is near front shift it to the rear (easier on a new van)
Idea #6 Add an extra spare wheel on the bumper.
Idea #7 Shift the batteries
Idea #8 Don't cart do much junk around in the boot.

Doing all these things could potentially change the ball weight by 100+ KG, Some ideas are hard on an existing van, much easier on a new van( if you have a co-operative manufacturer).

That said there are some big name vans that never could be right as the axles are way too far back.

Jim

Hi Jim

Went through this exercise three years back in an attempt to lighten van/static tow-ball weight.

Started with the undercarriage. The Sunland Patriot seemed ideal, but I wanted full composite fiberglass on the body which added 200Kg over an aluminum sided shell.
To pare back the weight, I

• shifted the air-con from over the front axle to over the rear axle;
• replaced all MDF faced cupboards with Tasmanian Cedar (saved 80+ kg);
• replaced the queen-size bed with singles tailored to our heights;
• removed the wardrobe (top half) between beds 9left the table with drawer);
• removed the static dinette and replaced with light weight single recliner chairs;
• installed a light weight removable table (can be used outside as needed;
• downsized the storage box at the front of the van (easier access and less weight on A-frame);
• the bigger storage box held the genny slide as well - so I reduced the size of the awning to 16 foot and created a cavity that intruded in to the shower at the back for the slide and genny (a seat was created in the shower by box shape created for the genny (so 40+ Kg over the A-frame became 40+ Kg at the rear of the van but low down on the frame);
• added a combo gas room heater and hot water service (Truma), that was moved to under the foot of my bed (over front axle), - this would have been located at face height at the extreme rear of the van next to the toilet - so it offset the addition of the rear genny slide and transferred the weight forward(ish), but at floor level;
• all storage cupboards and a side binnacle that was built where the dinette would have met the wall, were centralised so that the vast majority of heavy goods could be stored low down over the top of the axles;
• a 60L water tank was located in front and a 190L tank in the rear, as close to the axles as possible - a 80L grey water tank was added at the rear, but is only filled infrequently so it is not a significant weight burden;
• all goods are plastic or other light weight materials;
• used two Lithium batteries (14Kg each) and only 2 - 200 watt solar panels;
• stayed with 184L fridge rather than 215L unit that was available;
• the washing machine is only 18kg, but can be removed very easily if not needed for a trip;
• also the microwave unit can be quick released and removed if not need for a trip.

I left the axle location alone. Plus - the more you hang off the rear of the van - the greater the pendulum effect, so be careful when adding things like extra tyres and their frames and other boxes and gennies at the extreme rear of the van.


I do not use a WDH - so there is a further weight saving (but not to every one's taste and necessary on a lot of combo's for the simple sake of safety).


You may find some of this useful when thinking laterally about weight saving measures for your van.
You could also change to a dual cab as an option - I know that Lovell's will do a GVM (3500Kg) AND GCM (7000Kg) upgrade to new rangers; BT-50's; D-Max's and a 6700Kg GCM upgrade for auto Hi-Lux's. As long as the upgrade is done pre-first rego so that it is registered federally.

[michaelmight10]

Tow ball weight

We have been looking a purchasing a new van and one of the limitations we keep running up against is ball weight of our NW pajero, 180 Kg once you go above 2500Kg (loaded) for the van. Many vans have ball weights around 170 kg, but that's not loaded, add a few items in the boot and you are suddenly "illegal".

So, after seeing that certification to 300 kg was possible in NSW, I called around a few engineers in Victoria to see if it was possible to do the certification here.

I was fortunate to speak to a local engineer who felt that it should be do-able, but the paperwork was going to be costly to set it up in the first place. He suggested if a group could be put together then he could do a batch, sharing the setup cost.

This exercise is going to cost some cash, so please only respond if you have a genuine need you are potentially willing to spend some money on. For those who do have a genuine need this is likely a better option than selling perfectly good tow vehicle to purchase another brand.

If you are interested in increasing the allowable ball down-load on your NT, NW, NX, Pajero in Victoria could you please post here or send me a PM.

That way I can gauge the level of interest and what peoples requirements are and see if we have a way forward.


Thanks in Anticipation Jim B

Hi, new to the group. I am very interested in increasing the ball weight of my NW. I called Statewide 4 x 4 and they have it on their list. The guy is going to look at it further and get back to me. CLIMAX suspension on NSW do an upgrade with certification but not in Vic. I want to buy a new van that has a Tare of 2250 kg, and tow ball weight around 240 -270kg, so the upgrade is very desirable.
Someone in Vic must be doing the upgrade?

[gmcclena]

We have been looking a purchasing a new van and one of the limitations we keep running up against is ball weight of our NW pajero, 180 Kg once you go above 2500Kg (loaded) for the van. Many vans have ball weights around 170 kg, but that's not loaded, add a few items in the boot and you are suddenly "illegal".

So, after seeing that certification to 300 kg was possible in NSW, I called around a few engineers in Victoria to see if it was possible to do the certification here.

I was fortunate to speak to a local engineer who felt that it should be do-able, but the paperwork was going to be costly to set it up in the first place. He suggested if a group could be put together then he could do a batch, sharing the setup cost.

This exercise is going to cost some cash, so please only respond if you have a genuine need you are potentially willing to spend some money on. For those who do have a genuine need this is likely a better option than selling perfectly good tow vehicle to purchase another brand.

If you are interested in increasing the allowable ball down-load on your NT, NW, NX, Pajero in Victoria could you please post here or send me a PM.

That way I can gauge the level of interest and what peoples requirements are and see if we have a way forward.


Thanks in Anticipation Jim B

Jimbo2. I am currently looking at the exact same upgrade to 300kg. Though in NSW I can go to Vic. if I have to.
Gmcclena

[Herman4x4]

Hi, new to the group. I am very interested in increasing the ball weight of my NW. I called Statewide 4 x 4 and they have it on their list. The guy is going to look at it further and get back to me. CLIMAX suspension on NSW do an upgrade with certification but not in Vic. I want to buy a new van that has a Tare of 2250 kg, and tow ball weight around 240 -270kg, so the upgrade is very desirable.
Someone in Vic must be doing the upgrade?

Hi Michael,
A couple of guys had their caravans ATM increased by Jason at JU Design in Gordon (near Ballan). He might be able to help with the increase of ball eight.
Regards,
Andrew

[pharb]

Jimbo2. I am currently looking at the exact same upgrade to 300kg. Though in NSW I can go to Vic. if I have to.
Gmcclena

Any modifications such as this have to be signed off by an engineer recognised in the state the vehicle is registered in.