Madigan suspension advice

[discolaw]

I have an opportunity to do a Madigan Line crossing in July in my NX auto, only mod rear air bags otherwise stock. I have travelled in various areas of the Simpson a number of times, some quite remote, and know the conditions to expect. However I have never done it in a Pajero or any other Mitsubishi vehicle. On the assumption the stock suspension will be inadequate I'm looking for advice as to the best spring/shocks combo to do the job, specifically from any members own NW/NX desert experiences. Be nice if the setup could translate to reasonably comfortable on road drive.

[old Jack]

Unfortunately there is no suspension that gives you a nice comfortable ride when empty and can cope easily with GVM+ loads and a desert crossing! It is hard enough to get a live axle rear suspension to cope with a change in payload of 500-700kgs let alone an IRS.

You are also restricted to a 35-40mm lift on the front and a 45-50mm lift on the rear above the standard ride heights of 503mm front and 533mm rear, when measured from centre of wheel hub to underside of wheel arch in a vertical line. This is a legal requirement as well as avoiding unwanted ABS, ASC and TC activations.

How many people are traveling in the car for the Madigan crossing?
How light can you travel, can you go basic bare bones or do you need a degree of comfort and luxury?
How many days are you planning to take?
How much fuel do you need to carry?
How much water do you need to carry?
What accessories and mods are done to your NW, that add weight?

The front suspension is quite easy to work out once I know what extra weight is fitted.
The rear suspension in much more difficult, you really need a EHD coil for the trip but possibly only a MD or HD coil for the rest of the time. If you can change coils yourself then the cost for a set of coils is about $200 - $250 but if you have the pay someone then add another few hundred. Since your NW is a few years old, the wheel alignment adjuster could be frozen so this adds expense to the suspension upgrade.

Desert travel carrying high loads is very tough on your tyres, these really need to be LT 10 ply construction with at least 1/2 tread depth if you want to minimise tyre problems.

I did a desert crossing last year with NJswb in his NT and Pajero 12 in his NW, both vehicle were over GVM and around max rear axle load of 1800kgs. We had fitted King EHD rear coils and refitted airbags to NJswb's NT and King EHD rear coils to Pajero12's NW. Both vehicles when fully loaded sat around the 520-530mm rear ride height so this provided good wheel travel in compression and extension. Both vehicles have permanently installed drawer systems, long range fuel tank and carry significant weight when not touring and sit at about 550mm to 560mm when "empty", I suspect if they did not have this constant extra weight in the rear the King EHD coils would be way too high and too stiff.

What are the other vehicles in the group and are they modified for remote area travel?

OJ.

[discolaw]

madigan suspension advice

Thanks very much Old Jack for all that good advice, lot of typing there, much appreciated.
I have set up vehicles before for desert travel and done quite a bit of it, just not in an NX Pajero or any Pajero. Previous travels were in landrover discos 1 and 2s with konis and later billies and HD springs R and MD F. Never had a problem but of course the discos were live axle stuff. I'll be solo and travelling lighter than any trip done before but diesel will be at 220lts so roughly 220kg there.
I noticed you mentioned springs not shocks, maybe they were coming later.
All I really want to do is find an NW or NX owner who has done the Madigan or similar to see how they went and what they used and then I'll do my calculations.
Cheers

[discolaw]

madigan suspension advice

Just realised"solo" in my previous post could be misread. I meant I'll be the only person in my vehicle, not that I was travelling alone. I'll be going with others who are experienced and with desert set up vehicles.
Cheers

[dean]

I have a friend who took his family of four across the Simpson in their NX.
Not the Madigan but usual French/QAA lines...Eastbound.
Their Pajero was stock standard and they made it quite easily except for the rear bumper acting as a sand scoop.
I reckon you'd have no worries especially given your desert experience.
Dean

[outbackogre]

I've done three Simpson crossings with two diesel auto Pajeros (NP and NW), each with a MD Lovells and Bilstein combo. I was the only occupant, with 60 litres of fuel (in jerries), 40 litres of water, fridge, battery, folding solar panels, food, recovery gear, fire wood, tools behind the cargo barrier, and soft gear (clothes, bedding) in the second row seating area. I also strapped a second full spare wheel in front of the cargo barrier. The total weight behind the cargo barrier would have been well over 200kgs. With only a smart bar up front, this setup rode fairly level when fully loaded for these trips. Once home, all gear was removed and the MD rides fairly well around town. I tow a small caravan (about 100kgs on the ball) but am lightly loaded in the rear when towing and it rides very well.

[discolaw]

Thanks all for your advice. Outbackogre is probably closest to my thinking. It's a balance between loading (sometimes overloading I reckon) up with heavy duty stuff and living with the car when you get home. I have never had a dedicated tricked up 4wd, it's got to be a daily driver as well. Also in these days of satellite phones etc desert travel isn't what it used to be. Just look at the school holiday numbers out there doing the "regulation" crossing, its crazy and its not going to last especially if track abuse and disgusting littering keep increasing. The greenies, including those in govt. departments, would close the whole desert to vehicles in a heartbeat if they could. I'm surprised they haven't made it a "cause" already.
Apologies for digressing from the topic a little.

[stephenb489]

I've done the Anne Beadell and the Simpson, plus the Hay River Track.

In exactly the same setup as Old Jack has mentioned. Never had an issue as long as I drove to the conditions and not my desire to keep up with the others.

Around town and the open road it handles the corners and generally travels better than factory IMO.

Lots of years looking at advice on this forum, you'd have to go a long way to better the observations and advice of OJ.

Steve

[mrbitchi]

I crossed the Madigan in April / May this year and it's actually quite an easy track. Far easier than that potholed hell they call the French line. The main issue you'll have is you need to carry a LOT of fuel and water. Make no mistake, this is remote travel at it's best, so you need to be fully prepared with plenty of fuel and water in reserve. At the very least I'd install some heavy duty springs in the rear, and new shocks while your at it.

Our party was 2 x 200 series Cruisers, 1 x Jeep Rubicon, 1 x Pajero NW and a Mitsubishi "expedition" truck. None of us had any issues on the desert. The Paj was probably the least modified of all the vehicles but they were also masters of travelling light, no built in drawer system (they used old waxed cardboard fruit boxes), used a lightweight tent and only a couple of small stools for around the campfire. So you can do it without carrying massive amounts of weight.

We all had a ball and so will you

[mrbitchi]

A couple of pics to wet your appetite

[old Jack]

So how much fuel did each of the vehicles use?

OJ.

[mrbitchi]

Don't have everyone's figures handy..

Due to the floods we travelled from Mt Dare to camp 16 on the Hay River, then up the Hay River and out to Jervios. This was over 7 days, total of 797Ks and I used 146Lt. The other cruiser used about 160Lt. I think the Paj was about 130Lt.

[old Jack]

Don't have everyone's figures handy..

Due to the floods we travelled from Mt Dare to camp 16 on the Hay River, then up the Hay River and out to Jervios. This was over 7 days, total of 797Ks and the I used 146Lt. The other cruiser used about 160Lt. I think the Paj was about 130Lt.

130 litres for 800km in the desert is about 16.25 litres per 100km.
This is slightly better than the 16.6 litres per 100 km that both NJswb and Pajero 12 got last year when we crossed the Simpson via the WAA and QAA lines from Oodnadatta to Birdsville.


OJ.

[Jasonmc73]

Thanks very much Old Jack for all that good advice, lot of typing there, much appreciated.
I have set up vehicles before for desert travel and done quite a bit of it, just not in an NX Pajero or any Pajero. Previous travels were in landrover discos 1 and 2s with konis and later billies and HD springs R and MD F. Never had a problem but of course the discos were live axle stuff. I'll be solo and travelling lighter than any trip done before but diesel will be at 220lts so roughly 220kg there.
I noticed you mentioned springs not shocks, maybe they were coming later.
All I really want to do is find an NW or NX owner who has done the Madigan or similar to see how they went and what they used and then I'll do my calculations.
Cheers

I also often wonder about shocks?
Are heavy duty shocks like Koni 90 series worth running with A heavy duty spring, not EHD springs for all round use? I realise the spring carries the load & springs depend on weight carried or are these A stiff shocky, although are offered as adjustbale?
Following KIWI1973 story they seem to last, although more expensive first outlay.
Visiting remote places & driving to shop to get the milk as it were?

[old Jack]

I also often wonder about shocks?
Are heavy duty shocks like Koni 90 series worth running with A heavy duty spring, not EHD springs for all round use? I realise the spring carries the load & springs depend on weight carried or are these A stiff shocky, although are offered as adjustbale?
Following KIWI1973 story they seem to last, although more expensive first outlay.
Visiting remote places & driving to shop to get the milk as it were?

The vehicle weight is normally much higher than it is when the vehicle is driven around the city and suburbs. Even working very hard most people struggle to keep below GVM let alone max axle weights when on extended outback trips or desert crossing. You have live like a Bushwalker, small tent, minimal clothing, very basic food, no luxuries like comfy camp chairs, limited fresh food, beer, wine, stretcher and plenty of extra water to use for washing.

Springs, shockers/dampner and tyre's need to work together otherwise one or more of these components will fail in extreme conditions, such as extended outback touring.

Tyre's form the first part of your suspension and it is tyre pressure and tyre strength that are critical. You need to reduce tyre pressures to absorb some of the initial impacts, this means the tyre's sidewall flexes, and builds up heat and will fail if you get the combination of tyre construction and pressures wrong for the loads you are carrying and the speed you are traversing particular terrain. If you don't reduce tyre pressures then you run a much higher risk of puncturing a tyre through the tread, destroying shocker/strut bushes and mounts as well as making the vehicle shake to pieces. Roof racks mounts, bullbar mounts, aux fuel tank mounts, spotlight mounts, aux battery mounts, UHF mounts, storage systems can all have structural failures due to vibrations that are excessive and sustained.

Springs carry the weight of the vehicle, the best design for weight carrying capacity is multi leaf on live axle, then coil on live axle, then coil independent suspension. So the coils on a IFS and IRS Pajero get a real beating when remote touring. This is why it is so important to get the coil selection correct. It is finding the best balance between free height and spring rates to achieve the ride heights and suspension travel over rough ground. If the spring is too low and too soft then the vehicle will bottom out all the time, and these shock loads go straight to the tyre's, which then fail! These are the shock loads that will also cause structural damage, particularly to anything that is mounted to the vehicle body. If the mount does not fail then the body/chassis structure that it is bolted to will fail! If the spring are too hard and high you will loose suspension travel, this also transmits the impact loads through to the suspension mounts, tyre's and everything else including the vehicle occupants. So a touring suspension must be able to carry the GVM/Max axle load weights whilst maintaining a ride height equivalent to the unladen factory specifications +20/-10mm and must also be able to travel the maximum amount without hitting the bumpstops.

Dampeners, also called shockers and struts but these are different.
Struts form the structural mounting component for the coils on front of most modern 4wds, these are a structural suspension component with an inbuilt shock absorber function. Shockers however are not a structural part of the suspension so when these fail the structural integrity of the suspension is not compromised. The role of a dampener is simply to control the rate of compression and rebound extension of the suspension. On performance road cars you want firm control in both directions, on passenger vehicles you want medium suspension contol in both compression and rebound, on off road racing buggies you want soft compression and firm rebound. Problem is with a recreational 4wd setup for outback touring, you need somewhere in between a passenger vehicle and an off road racing buggy but for a very heavily loaded vehicle.
So for a touring 4wd the bigger dampener the better, this is because they have more oil capacity so they do not have to work as hard, this is why off road racers use remote canister dampeners that have much greater oil capacity and greater heat disappation ability. Dampener cooling rate is critical, when the dampeners are doing their job they become hot so it is important that this heat us disappated quickly, Montube construction do this better than twin wall construction.

Brand wise, if cash is not a problem and you can get them to suit, King or Fox remote canisters are the Rolls Royce but these are thousands of dollars and most people cannot justify the expense. Koni are much more affordable but still expensive, I ran these shockers (not struts) on my Jackaroo for over 200,000kms and only needed to replace bushes a few times. If Koni had been available to suit my Challenger I would have fitted them. Bisltein are a great on road dampener but I had 3 front strut failures in under 100,000km and the rebound rate was too soft for my Lovells Custom EHDVR rear coils.
Currently I have fitted Dobinson Monotubes, but not the remote canister version as these have a reputation of failing. They have only been fitted for 25,000kms and so far they are ok, there compression and rebound valving suits my requirements.
Old Man Emu, made by Monroe in Australia, have a reputation for being overpriced and riding hard (too firm on compression). All your other popular big brand struts and shockers Ultimate, Lovells, TGM, EFS, Raw, Outback Armour, Peddars are mostly made off shore, really you are paying more for the name rather than the dampener. In this mid price range you are better off buying Monroe, KYB or OzTech. OzTech are little known but great quality and value shocker that will suit most recreational 4wds unless you are doing extended, hard, off road trips when very heavily ladened.

OJ.