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Torque Convertor Lockup kits, Good or Bad technical discussion.

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  • Dicko1
    Valued Member
    • Dec 2014
    • 7610
    • Cairns, FNQ

    #91
    I used to drive in sports mode before I installed automate. Since then 80% of my towing is in Drive, with a lot of it in 5th gear. No problems, no alarms, no shuddering, more responsive, less fuel, easier driving etc.etc. You can talk torque till the cows come home if that's your thing. I bought the product safe in the knowledge it was a well developed, thoroughly tested and well backed up product made by someone with a wish to create a better driving experience. It works and like most people...dont care too much about the magic behind...just its function. Well done Marshall...
    Dicko. FNQ

    2014 NW with all the usual stuff plus more.

    TIME....1000 times more valuable than money

    Comment

    • old Jack
      Regular
      • Jun 2011
      • 11499
      • Adelaide, South Australia.

      #92
      I think the depth and breadth of this discussion has further explained the reasons why the MM4x4 TC lockup products are superior to all others on the market.

      OJ.
      2011 PB Base White Auto, Smartbar, Cooper STMaxx LT235/85R-16,TPMS, HR TB, 3 x Bushskinz, front +40mm Dobinson , rear +50mm EHDVR Lovells, Dobinson MT struts and shockers, Peddars 5899 cone springs, Windcheater rack, GME UHF, Custom alloy drawer system inc. 30lt Engel & 2 x 30 AH LiFePo batteries + elec controls, Tailgate hi-lift/long struts, Phillips +100 LB & HB, Lightforce 20" single row driving beam LED lightbar, Scanguage II.
      MM4x4 Auto Mate, Serial No 1 .

      Comment

      • Mundy55
        Valued Member
        • Nov 2015
        • 907
        • Gold Coast

        #93
        Great thread everyone. Thanks for all the discussion (without rancour).

        Comment

        • jimsutt
          Member
          • Jun 2012
          • 72
          • Sydney

          #94
          Originally posted by Keithyv View Post
          It allows the engine to run at higher revs which increases the power and torque going to the drive wheels.

          It may increase the torque to the wheels, only because the engine is doing more work.

          Same effect can occur by changing down a gear.
          Again, torque converter lock is irrelevant - it just means the gearing is changing when it unlocks. It does not mean the TC magically increases torque.
          It is just changing the engine revs.
          The reason that revs drop when locked is because there is no slip in the TC. That how you save fuel. TC have the ability to increase torque when they slip, that's why autos have the ability to put more torque to the wheels and are great for towing. The slip on torque convertors is what makes auto use more fuel than manuals.

          Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

          Comment

          • Mundy55
            Valued Member
            • Nov 2015
            • 907
            • Gold Coast

            #95
            Originally posted by Mundy55 View Post
            ........Further, an increase in vehicle speed will create a greater power demand and torque demand. Depending on where the engine is working on the torque curve, this increase in speed will either see the available torque (provided by the engine) either increase or decrease. If it increases and is greater than the new torque demand, the engine and gearing can meet the new power and torque requirements. If it decreases, if the rate of increase in engine rpm is greater than the rate of decrease in torque available, the engine and gearing will cope. If it increases but is less than the new torque demand, the combined rate of increase in engine rpm and torque available need to be greater than the rate of increased demand. In both the latter cases, if there is either insufficient power or torque, the torque converter needs to unlock and/or a change of gear is required.
            At the risk of demonstrating me shooting myself in the foot a fourth time (thanks NJ and KB), I have reflected on the above assertions I previously made and I'm not sure now it is always true.

            In times past I have reflected on whether, if a vehicle (without changing gears) in trying to go faster cannot, or if proceeding on a steeping hill can't cope, is this because the engine output is always torque limited or can it be sometimes because it is power limited?

            One might well ask, "who cares?" and I don't know quite how to answer that either but I find it a interesting thing to ponder on.

            I think now it is always torque limited for if there is more torque available when demanded the vehicle should respond. But is there a case where there is sufficient torque available but the engine is unable to provide that torque at a sufficient rate (ie power) to be able to respond? If the former, then my above quoted statements are probably not entirely true. I am also not sure if there is a material difference between a manual and auto transmission in considering this issue.

            Comment

            • nj swb
              Resident
              • Jun 2007
              • 7321
              • Adelaide

              #96
              Originally posted by Mundy55 View Post
              At the risk of demonstrating me shooting myself in the foot a fourth time (thanks NJ and KB), I have reflected on the above assertions I previously made and I'm not sure now it is always true.

              In times past I have reflected on whether, if a vehicle (without changing gears) in trying to go faster cannot, or if proceeding on a steeping hill can't cope, is this because the engine output is always torque limited or can it be sometimes because it is power limited?

              One might well ask, "who cares?" and I don't know quite how to answer that either but I find it a interesting thing to ponder on.

              I think now it is always torque limited for if there is more torque available when demanded the vehicle should respond. But is there a case where there is sufficient torque available but the engine is unable to provide that torque at a sufficient rate (ie power) to be able to respond? If the former, then my above quoted statements are probably not entirely true. I am also not sure if there is a material difference between a manual and auto transmission in considering this issue.
              Through the course of this discussion I have also wondered this, and concluded it's difficult to produce a definitive answer - because, in the context of spinning driveshafts, at any given rotational speed power and torque are inextricably linked.

              Personally, I lean towards it's the torque that is required, as the torque is the number I would use to calculate the force required (by the tread of the tyre pushing against the road) to accelerate the mass.

              I also point to a "limit" case of a vehicle at standstill. The driveshafts are not spinning, there is no power available - so it must be the torque that commences the acceleration. This also fits with "torque does the work, power determines how quickly the work is done".

              Alternatively, consider the dynamic case of a vehicle cruising at a constant speed on a flat road. Arguably, engine power output is matching losses to all the various drags - aerodynamic being the most obvious, but also myriad frictional losses in the drivetrain (even the tyres rolling on the road surface). To go faster will require the engine output energy at a greater rate than it is being lost i.e. more power is required to cruise faster, where losses will be higher.

              Or the tyres need to push harder to overcome the losses - so more torque is required.
              NT Platinum. DiD Auto with 265/70R17 ST Maxx, Lift, Lockers, Lockup Mate, Low range reduction, LRA Aux tank, bull bar, winch, lots of touring stuff. Flappy paddles. MMCS is gone!

              Project: NJ SWB. 285/75R16 ST Maxx, 2" OME suspension, 2" body lift, ARB 110, 120l tank, bullbar, scratches, no major dents. Fully engineered in SA. NW DiD & auto in place - a long way to go....

              Scorpro Explorer Box

              Comment

              • Dicko1
                Valued Member
                • Dec 2014
                • 7610
                • Cairns, FNQ

                #97
                Torque vs power..


                Always got a smile out of this old clip...


                Dragrace between Hildo, the owner & builder, of a 25 year old Harley Ratbike Chopper and the owner of a 170hp+ Honda CBR1000RR Fireblade. This man has consid...



                Dicko. FNQ

                2014 NW with all the usual stuff plus more.

                TIME....1000 times more valuable than money

                Comment

                • nj swb
                  Resident
                  • Jun 2007
                  • 7321
                  • Adelaide

                  #98
                  Originally posted by Dicko1 View Post
                  Torque vs power..


                  Always got a smile out of this old clip...


                  Dragrace between Hildo, the owner & builder, of a 25 year old Harley Ratbike Chopper and the owner of a 170hp+ Honda CBR1000RR Fireblade. This man has consid...



                  Nice clip - shows the benefit of low down torque over top end power.

                  A couple of observations.

                  1. They never got fast enough for the top end power of the sport bike to make a difference. A standing mile is likely to have had a different outcome.

                  2. On the last run, it looked like the Harley cut off the sport bike - he had nowhere to go. Even if he was able to catch the Harley in the available distance (unlikely), he had no space to get past.

                  But I think it's a great demonstration that for real world around town driving i.e. the stop light Grand Prix, torque is more useful than power. There's no replacement for displacement.
                  NT Platinum. DiD Auto with 265/70R17 ST Maxx, Lift, Lockers, Lockup Mate, Low range reduction, LRA Aux tank, bull bar, winch, lots of touring stuff. Flappy paddles. MMCS is gone!

                  Project: NJ SWB. 285/75R16 ST Maxx, 2" OME suspension, 2" body lift, ARB 110, 120l tank, bullbar, scratches, no major dents. Fully engineered in SA. NW DiD & auto in place - a long way to go....

                  Scorpro Explorer Box

                  Comment

                  • Keithyv
                    Valued Member
                    • May 2018
                    • 1347
                    • Perth

                    #99
                    Originally posted by jimsutt View Post
                    The reason that revs drop when locked is because there is no slip in the TC. That how you save fuel. TC have the ability to increase torque when they slip, that's why autos have the ability to put more torque to the wheels and are great for towing. The slip on torque convertors is what makes auto use more fuel than manuals.

                    Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk
                    Agree on all these points except autos putting more torque to the wheels and are great for towing.

                    Maybe not more torque than a manual but perhaps better spread. And definitely not better for towing unless TC is locked up.
                    I suppose better for towing could be the lack of manual clutch which IS better for getting things off the mark vs a manual / slipping the clutch etc.

                    Once up to speed no.
                    2014 NW MY14 3.2 DID GLX-R Auto. Champagne in colour!
                    MM Lockup mate. King KCRS-35 rear springs. Monroe Gas Magnum TDT rear shocks. 3M color stable tint all round. Spare wheel lift kit. 'Dynamat' in all doors and rear cargo area. Pioneer AVH-Z5150BT Head Unit. Upgraded Speakers. Rear (2nd row) USB outlet. Factory nudge bar with LED light bar. Provent catch can. LED interior lights. Rear cargo area twin Andersons and Merit socket. Anderson plug in rear bumper. 6 channel TPMS.

                    Comment

                    • nj swb
                      Resident
                      • Jun 2007
                      • 7321
                      • Adelaide

                      Originally posted by Keithyv View Post
                      Agree on all these points except autos putting more torque to the wheels and are great for towing.

                      Maybe not more torque than a manual but perhaps better spread.
                      More torque at the wheels than a manual. Stall torque ratio of 1.85:1. A manual's 1st gear isn't that much lower than the auto's 1st gear.

                      2013 NW DiD manual:

                      First gear = 4.234, final drive 3.917. Let's be generous and give it the earlier model's 4.1. Overall reduction ratio in first gear is 4.234 x 4.1 = 17.36. This is the highest possible multiplication of engine torque that can reach the wheels (in high range).

                      2013 NW DiD auto:

                      First gear = 3.520, final drive 3.917, stall torque ratio 1.85:1.

                      3.520 x 3.917 x 1.85 = 25.5. This is the highest possible multiplication of engine torque that can reach the wheels (in high range).

                      More torque at the wheels than a manual. It's a simple fact.
                      NT Platinum. DiD Auto with 265/70R17 ST Maxx, Lift, Lockers, Lockup Mate, Low range reduction, LRA Aux tank, bull bar, winch, lots of touring stuff. Flappy paddles. MMCS is gone!

                      Project: NJ SWB. 285/75R16 ST Maxx, 2" OME suspension, 2" body lift, ARB 110, 120l tank, bullbar, scratches, no major dents. Fully engineered in SA. NW DiD & auto in place - a long way to go....

                      Scorpro Explorer Box

                      Comment

                      • Keithyv
                        Valued Member
                        • May 2018
                        • 1347
                        • Perth

                        Maybe not quite so cut and dried, surely a clutch in a manual CAN do a (albeit much poorer) job of multiplying torque when slipping?
                        2014 NW MY14 3.2 DID GLX-R Auto. Champagne in colour!
                        MM Lockup mate. King KCRS-35 rear springs. Monroe Gas Magnum TDT rear shocks. 3M color stable tint all round. Spare wheel lift kit. 'Dynamat' in all doors and rear cargo area. Pioneer AVH-Z5150BT Head Unit. Upgraded Speakers. Rear (2nd row) USB outlet. Factory nudge bar with LED light bar. Provent catch can. LED interior lights. Rear cargo area twin Andersons and Merit socket. Anderson plug in rear bumper. 6 channel TPMS.

                        Comment

                        • nj swb
                          Resident
                          • Jun 2007
                          • 7321
                          • Adelaide

                          Originally posted by Keithyv View Post
                          Maybe not quite so cut and dried, surely a clutch in a manual CAN do a (albeit much poorer) job of multiplying torque when slipping?
                          Yes, that's right, a worn out clutch that slips under load is sending more torque to the wheels.
                          NT Platinum. DiD Auto with 265/70R17 ST Maxx, Lift, Lockers, Lockup Mate, Low range reduction, LRA Aux tank, bull bar, winch, lots of touring stuff. Flappy paddles. MMCS is gone!

                          Project: NJ SWB. 285/75R16 ST Maxx, 2" OME suspension, 2" body lift, ARB 110, 120l tank, bullbar, scratches, no major dents. Fully engineered in SA. NW DiD & auto in place - a long way to go....

                          Scorpro Explorer Box

                          Comment

                          • Keithyv
                            Valued Member
                            • May 2018
                            • 1347
                            • Perth

                            Originally posted by nj swb View Post
                            Yes, that's right, a worn out clutch that slips under load is sending more torque to the wheels.
                            Not just a worn out one but one being deliberately slipped too
                            2014 NW MY14 3.2 DID GLX-R Auto. Champagne in colour!
                            MM Lockup mate. King KCRS-35 rear springs. Monroe Gas Magnum TDT rear shocks. 3M color stable tint all round. Spare wheel lift kit. 'Dynamat' in all doors and rear cargo area. Pioneer AVH-Z5150BT Head Unit. Upgraded Speakers. Rear (2nd row) USB outlet. Factory nudge bar with LED light bar. Provent catch can. LED interior lights. Rear cargo area twin Andersons and Merit socket. Anderson plug in rear bumper. 6 channel TPMS.

                            Comment

                            • old Jack
                              Regular
                              • Jun 2011
                              • 11499
                              • Adelaide, South Australia.

                              Originally posted by nj swb View Post
                              Yes, that's right, a worn out clutch that slips under load is sending more torque to the wheels.
                              I am struggling to see how a slipping mechanical friction clutch can multiply torque output to the gear box.
                              Yes the engine rpm will increase for a given vehicle speed but the ability for the clutch to transfer drive from the crankshaft to the gearbox is greatly diminished. Having driven a manual 4wd with a leaky rear crankshaft seal that coated the clutch in engine oil, during a Kimberley trip, I can assure you that the vehicle struggled to take off or accelerate in any gear.

                              A torque converter is a hydraulic coupling between the engine and gearbox with reduction gear box and clutch functions, it achieves this by the clever use and control of hydraulic pressure.

                              OJ.
                              2011 PB Base White Auto, Smartbar, Cooper STMaxx LT235/85R-16,TPMS, HR TB, 3 x Bushskinz, front +40mm Dobinson , rear +50mm EHDVR Lovells, Dobinson MT struts and shockers, Peddars 5899 cone springs, Windcheater rack, GME UHF, Custom alloy drawer system inc. 30lt Engel & 2 x 30 AH LiFePo batteries + elec controls, Tailgate hi-lift/long struts, Phillips +100 LB & HB, Lightforce 20" single row driving beam LED lightbar, Scanguage II.
                              MM4x4 Auto Mate, Serial No 1 .

                              Comment

                              • Alben
                                Member
                                • Jul 2010
                                • 233
                                • Victoria

                                The only time that I could think it would generate more force would be if it suddenly gripped after slipping. But this would be more of a shock through the system. Sort of like a quick "blip" on the clutch to build quick revs and dump it. I have done it on a dirt bike up hills, but all i can see it really doing in a car/4wd scenario is prematurely wearing out the clutch and doing driveline damage.
                                But I am also not ashamed to admit most of the knowledge of torque convertors in this thread is beyond me and I am hear for the learning. So I could be well and truly wrong in my observation.

                                Cheers
                                Ben
                                2007 Pajero NS VRX - DID, Manual, Cool Silver, ARB Deluxe Bullbar, ARB Aluminium Rack, Awning, Bushskinz, Bilstein & Lovells HD, Safari Snorkel, Dual Battery, ARB Air Compressor, Lightforce XGTs, GME UHF, Cooper AT3, TPMS and Scan Gauge.

                                1996 Triton MJ Luxury Double Cab - 4d56T 2.5TD Manual, Snorkel, Canopy & Roof Rack, Side Step/Sliders, Bullbar, IPF Driving Lights, Mickey T MTZ's, GME UHF, Custom Roof Console, Spot Light, Pioneer Head Unit & Speakers, Piranha Dual Battery, Rear Drawers

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