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Torque Convertor Lockup kits, Good or Bad technical discussion.

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  • nj swb
    Resident
    • Jun 2007
    • 7321
    • Adelaide

    #61
    Originally posted by erad View Post
    Torque, although expressed as N-m is a static function.
    OK. What is potential energy? A spring under tension stores energy, even while it is stationary. The energy is there, ready to do work, whether anything moves or not. How is standing on the end of a breaker bar, applying torque, any different?

    Originally posted by erad View Post
    Unless you move something with Torque, you will do no net work ie you do not change the energy status of the thing you are torquing up.

    Your example of a guy bending a breaker bar had the torque causing the bar to bend. In that case, the stored energy is , as you say like a spring. When you stop standing on the breaker bar, the spring returns back to zero tension.
    The applied torque transferred elastic potential energy into the breaker bar (and whatever else prevented the breaker bar from rotating anything).

    Originally posted by erad View Post
    Work (or change of energy) is the result of some energy change (potential energy - lifting something, or kinetic energy (accelerating or decelerating).
    You defined the transfer of potential energy as work - so transferring elastic potential energy into the breaker bar is, by your definition, a form of work.

    Look at the mathematics of it.

    Strictly speaking, when we multiply a force in Newtons by a distance in metres, we end up with a number, with the units of Newton-metres. But sometimes we call the number "Joules", and other times we leave it as "Newton-metres".

    Regardless of whether we call the number "Joules" or "Newton-metres", when we divide that number by seconds we have Watts. We don't distinguish if the Watts came from Joules or from Newton-metres.

    We talk about lots of different forms of energy: kinetic energy, heat energy, potential energy - we have gravitational potential energy, elastic potential energy, electrical potential energy, chemical potential energy. Why isn't torque another form of energy, perhaps a potential energy?
    NT Platinum. DiD Auto with 265/70R17 ST Maxx, Lift, Lockers, Lockup Mate, Low range reduction, LRA Aux tank, bull bar, winch, lots of touring stuff. Flappy paddles. MMCS is gone!

    Project: NJ SWB. 285/75R16 ST Maxx, 2" OME suspension, 2" body lift, ARB 110, 120l tank, bullbar, scratches, no major dents. Fully engineered in SA. NW DiD & auto in place - a long way to go....

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    • nj swb
      Resident
      • Jun 2007
      • 7321
      • Adelaide

      #62
      So, as a glutton for punishment, I've been doing a little reading. The definition of "torque" depends on where you are and what you do.

      A common definition of "torque" is "change in angular momentum", so my example of standing on a breaker bar doesn't produce torque - it produces a "bending moment". Which is undoubtedly why the breaker bar bent.

      I'll never be able to look at a torque wrench the same again.

      I did find a very obvious point that I had completely missed. When force is applied longitudinally and creates linear movement, the Nm are energy. When force is applied laterally, and creates rotational movement, the Nm are torque. Unless there's no movement, in which case it's a bending moment, and I didn't establish if there are still Nm involved.

      No wonder I'm confused. Nm really are magical beasties! Perhaps Keithyv is on to something.
      NT Platinum. DiD Auto with 265/70R17 ST Maxx, Lift, Lockers, Lockup Mate, Low range reduction, LRA Aux tank, bull bar, winch, lots of touring stuff. Flappy paddles. MMCS is gone!

      Project: NJ SWB. 285/75R16 ST Maxx, 2" OME suspension, 2" body lift, ARB 110, 120l tank, bullbar, scratches, no major dents. Fully engineered in SA. NW DiD & auto in place - a long way to go....

      Scorpro Explorer Box

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      • Keithyv
        Valued Member
        • May 2018
        • 1347
        • Perth

        #63
        Originally posted by disco stu View Post
        I read what he said as saying that same thing, but was saying that the extra torque comes only because that slip allows the engine revs to increase leading to the extra torque
        Yes that is what I was trying to say.
        People seem to think an unlocked torque converter is adding torque. It is but only because engine revs change. All the act of locking and unlocking is doing is changing the ratios. That and changing how much energy is lost as heat.
        2014 NW MY14 3.2 DID GLX-R Auto. Champagne in colour!
        MM Lockup mate. King KCRS-35 rear springs. Monroe Gas Magnum TDT rear shocks. 3M color stable tint all round. Spare wheel lift kit. 'Dynamat' in all doors and rear cargo area. Pioneer AVH-Z5150BT Head Unit. Upgraded Speakers. Rear (2nd row) USB outlet. Factory nudge bar with LED light bar. Provent catch can. LED interior lights. Rear cargo area twin Andersons and Merit socket. Anderson plug in rear bumper. 6 channel TPMS.

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        • nj swb
          Resident
          • Jun 2007
          • 7321
          • Adelaide

          #64
          Originally posted by Keithyv View Post
          Yes that is what I was trying to say.
          People seem to think an unlocked torque converter is adding torque. It is but only because engine revs change. All the act of locking and unlocking is doing is changing the ratios. That and changing how much energy is lost as heat.
          People think that because it's true. Changing gear ratios (going to a lower gear) is increasing torque, unlocking a torque converter is increasing torque.

          Google it.
          NT Platinum. DiD Auto with 265/70R17 ST Maxx, Lift, Lockers, Lockup Mate, Low range reduction, LRA Aux tank, bull bar, winch, lots of touring stuff. Flappy paddles. MMCS is gone!

          Project: NJ SWB. 285/75R16 ST Maxx, 2" OME suspension, 2" body lift, ARB 110, 120l tank, bullbar, scratches, no major dents. Fully engineered in SA. NW DiD & auto in place - a long way to go....

          Scorpro Explorer Box

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          • Jasonmc73
            Valued Member
            • Jun 2019
            • 2692
            • Brisbane

            #65
            Originally posted by nj swb View Post
            People think that because it's true. Changing gear ratios (going to a lower gear) is increasing torque, unlocking a torque converter is increasing torque.

            Google it.
            So we could say it is correct the engine revs would increase unlocked to maintain the same output convertor speed which required more torque?

            The input of the convertor increased & the output of the convertor remaained the same & more torque was sent to Mr Aisin to continue at same speed.
            Mitsubishi Pajero NX MY16 GLS with Sand Grabba floor mats, Ultragauge, Automate & Paddle gear shifters with Vlads traction control mod, Nautia switch panel, ARB compressor, Redarc Tow Pro, Anderson plug, Bushskinz front & rear alloy plates, Kaon light duty cargo barrier & rear door table

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            • nj swb
              Resident
              • Jun 2007
              • 7321
              • Adelaide

              #66
              Originally posted by Jasonmc73 View Post
              So we could say it is correct the engine revs would increase unlocked to maintain the same output convertor speed which required more torque?

              The input of the convertor increased & the output of the convertor remaained the same & more torque was sent to Mr Aisin to continue at same speed.
              It is true that, in reality, the engine revs will increase and, given the typical characteristics of an internal combustion engine, the power will almost certainly increase, and the torque is also likely to increase.

              But the increase in torque that comes out of the torque converter isn't solely due to the engine spinning faster and producing more torque. A torque converter is called a torque converter because it converts torque - while it is slipping. More torque comes out than goes in.

              Stick a torque converter on an electric motor that decreases torque as revs increase. Unlocking the torque converter will let the engine spin faster, where it will produce less torque, but the torque converter will produce more torque.

              Don't take my word for it. Google it.
              NT Platinum. DiD Auto with 265/70R17 ST Maxx, Lift, Lockers, Lockup Mate, Low range reduction, LRA Aux tank, bull bar, winch, lots of touring stuff. Flappy paddles. MMCS is gone!

              Project: NJ SWB. 285/75R16 ST Maxx, 2" OME suspension, 2" body lift, ARB 110, 120l tank, bullbar, scratches, no major dents. Fully engineered in SA. NW DiD & auto in place - a long way to go....

              Scorpro Explorer Box

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              • Kingbrown
                Valued Member
                • Apr 2012
                • 1773
                • Port Augusta - SA

                #67
                Our views seem to be converging into a common understanding.
                Hope this doodling doesn't destroy that consensus.
                20200321_181935.jpg
                2012 PB Challenger LS Manual

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                • Keithyv
                  Valued Member
                  • May 2018
                  • 1347
                  • Perth

                  #68
                  Originally posted by nj swb View Post
                  People think that because it's true. Changing gear ratios (going to a lower gear) is increasing torque, unlocking a torque converter is increasing torque.

                  Google it.
                  I'm glad we all agree on that then!

                  My main beef was some posts here were pointing to (or that's how I took it) a locked TC (or lockup kits per se) as a bad thing because the engine laboured when using them.

                  Nobody's attacking a manual gearbox that can be used to let the engine labour when in too high a gear..

                  TC lockup is not the problem per se, locking up at the wrong time and creating an inappropriate gear ratio is a problem.

                  Slipping TC multiplies torque, lower gears multiplies torque (because they are doing the same thing - changing input VS output ratio). It does not means a slipping TC is always a good thing or magically decreases load on the engine.

                  Overall, a slipping TC reduces the efficiency of the drivetrain and a gearbox at the SAME EFFECTIVE GEAR RATIO, is ALWAYS going to create extra heat and waste energy if the TC is unlocked vs locked.

                  Not that a slipping TC is a bad thing always, of course it is not.
                  It give that 'elastic' ratio that so well suits some engines (like Turbo diesel)

                  CVT is perhaps an attempt at the best of best worlds - manual's minimal energy loss with the advantages of a variable ratio. Not sure how successful some implementations are however.

                  Are we off track (again) yet?
                  Last edited by Keithyv; 21-03-20, 07:10 PM.
                  2014 NW MY14 3.2 DID GLX-R Auto. Champagne in colour!
                  MM Lockup mate. King KCRS-35 rear springs. Monroe Gas Magnum TDT rear shocks. 3M color stable tint all round. Spare wheel lift kit. 'Dynamat' in all doors and rear cargo area. Pioneer AVH-Z5150BT Head Unit. Upgraded Speakers. Rear (2nd row) USB outlet. Factory nudge bar with LED light bar. Provent catch can. LED interior lights. Rear cargo area twin Andersons and Merit socket. Anderson plug in rear bumper. 6 channel TPMS.

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                  • nj swb
                    Resident
                    • Jun 2007
                    • 7321
                    • Adelaide

                    #69
                    Originally posted by Kingbrown View Post
                    Our views seem to be converging into a common understanding.
                    Hope this doodling doesn't destroy that consensus.
                    [ATTACH]43379[/ATTACH]
                    Thank you.

                    I ran your scenario through a different set of calculations, and came up with the same result - it's that pesky unitless radian that makes all the difference, as you tried to tell me earlier, and I didn't accept. Sorry KB.

                    So multiply force by distance in the direction of the force, and the calculated number is Joules - energy.

                    Multiply force by distance perpendicular to the force, and the calculated number is Nm - torque. It's only once that pesky unitless radian is brought into the calculation that Nm become Joules.

                    That also explains my confusion of Watts being Joules per second or Newton-metres per second - it's actually Newton-metres-radians per second.

                    I'm still a little confused about bending moments storing elastic potential energy, but I'm sure I'll get over it.

                    Thanks to those who have set me straight.
                    NT Platinum. DiD Auto with 265/70R17 ST Maxx, Lift, Lockers, Lockup Mate, Low range reduction, LRA Aux tank, bull bar, winch, lots of touring stuff. Flappy paddles. MMCS is gone!

                    Project: NJ SWB. 285/75R16 ST Maxx, 2" OME suspension, 2" body lift, ARB 110, 120l tank, bullbar, scratches, no major dents. Fully engineered in SA. NW DiD & auto in place - a long way to go....

                    Scorpro Explorer Box

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                    • Jasonmc73
                      Valued Member
                      • Jun 2019
                      • 2692
                      • Brisbane

                      #70
                      So the benefit of a well thought out Lock up kit & why people find under load they use less Diesel, is the transmission is kept more efficient state with less energy loss through heat in the transmission oil.
                      The less heat which is the detrimental issue here as under load it has been shown the oil breaks down long before any warning lights come on in a Pajero vehicle for relevance.

                      Engine load can be changed through the planetary gears for example, torque delivered for the work to be done etc.
                      Mitsubishi Pajero NX MY16 GLS with Sand Grabba floor mats, Ultragauge, Automate & Paddle gear shifters with Vlads traction control mod, Nautia switch panel, ARB compressor, Redarc Tow Pro, Anderson plug, Bushskinz front & rear alloy plates, Kaon light duty cargo barrier & rear door table

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                      • disco stu
                        Valued Member
                        • Dec 2018
                        • 3087
                        • Wollongong

                        #71
                        I think I'm with what nj swb is getting at when he says it increases torque. We all know it doesn't come from nowhere, but when he says it isn't engine torque increasing, what he is getting at is that it's power increasing and the torque converter converts that to torque.

                        Is that correct nj?

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                        • disco stu
                          Valued Member
                          • Dec 2018
                          • 3087
                          • Wollongong

                          #72
                          Another thought to throw in, as some seem to be seeing it different between rotation and straight line movement

                          Something rotating (lever), like a cars wheel, when put onto a surface, like the road, will move the car forward in a distance based on the radius and angle rotated.

                          Does that help in crossing the boundary between a lever and movement, linking the two?

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                          • disco stu
                            Valued Member
                            • Dec 2018
                            • 3087
                            • Wollongong

                            #73
                            Sorry, I'm behind the 8 ball here and now recall (after some reading) that radians is actually the measurement I'm taking about above

                            I don't quite understand why radians is dimensionless when it is the radius wrapped around the outside of the circle made by that radius. I thought then it would be in the same units as the radius

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                            • disco stu
                              Valued Member
                              • Dec 2018
                              • 3087
                              • Wollongong

                              #74
                              Just me correcting myself, again. Because radians is circumference/radius means it is unitless

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                              • old Jack
                                Regular
                                • Jun 2011
                                • 11499
                                • Adelaide, South Australia.

                                #75
                                Originally posted by disco stu View Post
                                Just me correcting myself, again. Because radians is circumference/radius means it is unitless
                                Radians are a SI unit of measure and 1 Radian is equivalent to 57.295 degrees of angle measurement, best explaination I could find that was easier to understand for the layperson was;


                                A SI unit is an agreed standard of international unit measurement within the metric system, for example the SI unit used for length is metre but portions or multiples of an SI unit are referred to as Non-SI units such as km=1000m and mm= 1/1000 of a m.


                                I wasn't expecting this thread to turn into a physics discussion when I chose the thread title!
                                Eventually this thread might get back on track.

                                OJ.
                                2011 PB Base White Auto, Smartbar, Cooper STMaxx LT235/85R-16,TPMS, HR TB, 3 x Bushskinz, front +40mm Dobinson , rear +50mm EHDVR Lovells, Dobinson MT struts and shockers, Peddars 5899 cone springs, Windcheater rack, GME UHF, Custom alloy drawer system inc. 30lt Engel & 2 x 30 AH LiFePo batteries + elec controls, Tailgate hi-lift/long struts, Phillips +100 LB & HB, Lightforce 20" single row driving beam LED lightbar, Scanguage II.
                                MM4x4 Auto Mate, Serial No 1 .

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