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Generation 3 Pajero NM - NP Models 2000 - 2006

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  #1  
Old 02-02-19
Ocean Ocean is offline
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Default Provent 200 Catch Can

Hi Guys,

Installed a Provent 200 Catch Can back in July 2018, very happy with it compared to my previous cheapie from eBay that had next to no filter in it and caught approx. 30ml of oil in 18 months. The Provent has a paper/fabric filter and after installing it I read somewhere they are 98% efficient, not sure how factual that is.

It is possible to get metal mesh filters for them, however I think it stands to reason paper/fabric filters are better at trapping suspended oil in vapour.

The main reason for my post is to share an observation with it; where I purchased it from recommended a filter change at 40000km, I got to 16700kms and found that the NP 3.2 4M41 with 275000kms on her has the oil light come one at low to idle RPM's. Soon as I removed the filter for a day and a day later got a new filter in, no more oil light.

Would seem the filters need replacing sooner possibly earlier. Maybe more so in older more worn engines. While the Provent 200's have a pressure relief valve and pressure blow off valve, appears an older engine does not have enough pressure flow at idle to trigger the relief valve when the filter becomes more clogged.

The photo of the overflow line has 1600kms of captured oil approx. 20ml.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Catch Can 1.jpg (14.4 KB, 73 views)
File Type: jpg Catch Can 2.jpg (15.9 KB, 82 views)
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  #2  
Old 02-02-19
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Hi Ocean,
I am confused by your observations and theory.

The oil pressure is supplied by the engine oil pump, there is a oil pressure sensor that signals the oil pressure warning light to come on when the oil pressure is low. Low oil level, incorrect oil, oil dilution with fuel, worn oil pump or engine components or fauly oil pressure regulator or faulty oil pressure sensor or connection could all cause the oil light to come ON.

The catch can is fitted inline with the emiision control plumbing and it takes crankcase ventilation gases which have oil in suspension and removes the oil rather than allowing it to go through the intercooler and back into the engine air intake. Cankcase air pressure is at a very low pressure, it is caused by small amounts of combustion gases bypassing the piston rings as well as normal thermal expansion of the air inside the crankcase. A good catch can has a pressure relief valve so if the catch can filter is blocked, then the crankcase cases can bypass the catch can and not allow crankcase pressures to build up too high.

The 2 systems are separate.

OJ.
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  #3  
Old 02-02-19
Ocean Ocean is offline
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Hi OJ,

Understand they are separate.
Maybe coincidental no issue with my oil level on the dip stick or any other oil related symptoms. When I removed the CC filter the oil light was no longer illuminated. I did approx 100kms without a filter before adding a new filter and still no oil light 1600kms later. The 1600kms included 500kms of towing in hot weather.

Coincidence maybe?
(never had an oil light previously)


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  #4  
Old 08-02-19
Sparky3975 Sparky3975 is offline
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I have the Flashlube catch can and mine too didn't last the expected period of time. They do however state that it is depend upon the engine (some engines produce more vapour than others). I also wondered whether some oils produce more vapour at temperature than others (I am using Penrite 15W-50 in mine).
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Old 09-02-19
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Perhaps it's something to do with the oil pressure sensor?

The PCV systems is designed to prevent build-up of pressure in the crank case (which is connected via galleries to the rocker cover). If the filter in the ProVent is creating back-pressure in the crank-case, maybe this is somehow impacting the oil pressure sensor? For example, if it is a differential pressure sensor that relies on measuring against atmospheric pressure, and it derives its "atmospheric reference" from upstream of the ProVent, perhaps the reduction in pressure differential is enough to trigger the oil pressure light?

It's a long shot - it's my theory, and even I'm sceptical.

Edit: on a slightly different topic, ProVent vs HPD.

I readily admit the ProVent is more efficient at trapping oil than the HPD. My HPD collects maybe 30ml every 10k km, I empty it each oil change simply because that's when I think to do it. I recently read a comment from a PS owner that their HPD was filling every 7500 km - now, I don't know what they mean by "full", but that seems a lot of oil to be collected by a less efficient collection system. If that's how much oil the HPD can collect, then I imagine a ProVent could easily collect a lot more in a short period - so I guess I'm not too surprised to learn that an older motor needs the filter changed more often.
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  #6  
Old 09-02-19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nj swb View Post
Perhaps it's something to do with the oil pressure sensor?

The PCV systems is designed to prevent build-up of pressure in the crank case (which is connected via galleries to the rocker cover). If the filter in the ProVent is creating back-pressure in the crank-case, maybe this is somehow impacting the oil pressure sensor? For example, if it is a differential pressure sensor that relies on measuring against atmospheric pressure, and it derives its "atmospheric reference" from upstream of the ProVent, perhaps the reduction in pressure differential is enough to trigger the oil pressure light?

It's a long shot - it's my theory, and even I'm sceptical.
Your "Scepticism" is well founded.
There is no differential pressure sensor in the oil system in the 4M41 3.2 DID engine that I can see looking at the Workshop Manual or the Technical Manual. I cannot find a breakdown of the oil pump but normally there would be a mechanical spring loaded valve that bleeds of excessive oil pressure as the engine rpm increases, this is typically how oil pressure is controlled with gear/lobe type engine driven oil pumps. The oil filter as a built in bypass valve which is designed to open and allow oil to continue to flow through the engine if the oil filter becomes clogged and the oil flow is insufficient. The oil pressure sensor is a basic direct reading electric sensor. Crankcase pressures are much lower than system oil pressures and normally the first sign of a blocked PCV is a leaky rocker cover gasket.

I am still thinking coincidence based on the information we currently have.

OJ.
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Old 09-02-19
Sparky3975 Sparky3975 is offline
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The Provent and Flashlube catch cans both have pressure relief valves built into them. If there was excessive pressure build up, you would see oil leakage from the relief valve (can also indicate that the filter requires replacement.
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Old 09-02-19
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Ocean, is there any indication that the safety valve in the ProVent cap was opening before you changed the filter?

Edit: didn't see Sparky's post...

I found one spec that said oil pressure at idle is 29kPa, or a little under 5 psi.

Another spec suggested the ProVent safety valve will open at 50mbar, or about 5 kPa.

Even if the ProVent valve was opening at 50mbar at idle, I'm not sure how that would affect the pressure being seen by the switch.
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  #9  
Old 09-02-19
Ocean Ocean is offline
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Default Provent 200 Catch Can

Quote:
Originally Posted by nj swb View Post
Ocean, is there any indication that the safety valve in the ProVent cap was opening before you changed the filter?


Hi no swb,

No sign, no oil residue outside the can. I got a spare filter from the same place I got the kit from they also mentioned when the filter is due for replacement there is usually residue around the lid on the outside. Interesting a new filter comes with a replacement lid seal, along with the filter having its own seal already fitted to the new filter.
Will report back if the oil light occurs again.


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Old 09-02-19
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Maybe, in fitting the catch can, you have accidentally disturbed the wiring to the oil pressure switch, and as the engine is idling, the wiring is shorting out to earth. This would bring up the oil light, and as you load up the engine, it may rock away enough so that the wiring no longer shorts out.
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