Rear dampeners (shock absorbers)

[Sjb-85]

I have to chuckle at times. Checked out if Dobinsons MRR were available for a Challenger. Was told no they are only intended for real 4x4s. Which strangely they consider a Triton to be a real 4x4, and the original Pajero as well.

What is a Challenger? Err? Triton chassis back to the rear door, then rear end following the design of the first coil sprung Pajeros to the point the springs are the same. Comes standard with rear diff lock might be a hint as well. Also, the PB/PC was targeted at countries like India, Russia, Africa and rather surprisingly made it to Australia. Yeap, definitely a shopping trolley to pick up the groceries in Siberia

Those pesky series one Landrovers must be shopping trolleys as well as they used the motor out of a a Rover car which we all know are luxury town cars. Yeap, Toyotas built the Snowy, err maybe one or two were used the vast bulk of 4x4s were Landrover. Heck, never let facts stand in the way of prejudice

You can definitely get the MRR's for the challenger! RMX has them on his

[Sjb-85]

https://www2.pajeroclub.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=49398

[Ent]

Interesting read. Could explain the rather weird conversation where the bloke from Dobinson was trying to convince me that you need to drive to the conditions, the Challenger was merely a shopping trolley, etc, etc. Even brought in the issue of gay law reform? WTF that has do with it? I wonder if they have really fixed the problem?

Frankly, outside the absolutely brilliant customer service from Kings Springs I have found suspension places hard work. Drummond are ok. Others rarely return calls. Ask some simple questions and suddenly they get defensive, etc. People appear to have spent a lot on suspension upgrades with very mixed results. Friend had Ironman for his Suzuki and both fronts failed at 15,000kms of road use. The camber adjusting bolt broke on the torquing up sequence second time around, and the springs lost height quicker than anyone could believe. On the Suzuki forum the rave reviews have been replaced with a dark cloud of anger and Ironman are claiming a bad batch or new improved ones are now out. The replacement springs from another company were the wrong ones, etc. He finally got a setup that worked ok fully loaded but terrible at light weight. Ok that is a big ask and luckily for me the Challenger is quite tolerant to spring rates.

My first set of rear springs from a rival to Kings were no where near claimed height. Another rival when asked for info suddenly decided nothing was suitable as I was too difficult. Many will not put claims in emails. People have found front droop stops removed which means CVs are likely to fail. The reason is the front has been raised too high.

What I understand of suspension very few places, if any, revalve to suit the springs. You simply can not expect any non adjustable dampener to get optimum performance unless it is set for the appropriate valve rate for the spring. Say factory 160-220 versus heavy duty 250-300. A seller of suspension had a recommend dampener that is valved for a mid range Kings spring so likely this combination would work very well. They were honest when I asked then re my heavier rear spring saying it would work but not be of a standard that they would be happy to sell, and be better to revalve the Bilsteins with a caveat to do a lot of research on the placing doing this as more than a few are hopeless at it.

I will likely get new Bilsteins revalved for the higher rear spring rates as at 80,000kms the old ones would likely need a rebuild to make the revalving sensible option.

I get the feeling once I do this I will be rewarded with an excellent riding and handling vehicle as the Bilsteins when younger did a reasonable job. Been a lot of hard work not to mention expensive.

[DrewXT]

Interesting read. Could explain the rather weird conversation where the bloke from Dobinson was trying to convince me that you need to drive to the conditions, the Challenger was merely a shopping trolley, etc, etc. Even brought in the issue of gay law reform? WTF that has do with it? I wonder if they have really fixed the problem?

Frankly, outside the absolutely brilliant customer service from Kings Springs I have found suspension places hard work. Drummond are ok. Others rarely return calls. Ask some simple questions and suddenly they get defensive, etc. People appear to have spent a lot on suspension upgrades with very mixed results. Friend had Ironman for his Suzuki and both fronts failed at 15,000kms of road use. The camber adjusting bolt broke on the torquing up sequence second time around, and the springs lost height quicker than anyone could believe. On the Suzuki forum the rave reviews have been replaced with a dark cloud of anger and Ironman are claiming a bad batch or new improved ones are now out. The replacement springs from another company were the wrong ones, etc. He finally got a setup that worked ok fully loaded but terrible at light weight. Ok that is a big ask and luckily for me the Challenger is quite tolerant to spring rates.

My first set of rear springs from a rival to Kings were no where near claimed height. Another rival when asked for info suddenly decided nothing was suitable as I was too difficult. Many will not put claims in emails. People have found front droop stops removed which means CVs are likely to fail. The reason is the front has been raised too high.

What I understand of suspension very few places, if any, revalve to suit the springs. You simply can not expect any non adjustable dampener to get optimum performance unless it is set for the appropriate valve rate for the spring. Say factory 160-220 versus heavy duty 250-300. A seller of suspension had a recommend dampener that is valved for a mid range Kings spring so likely this combination would work very well. They were honest when I asked then re my heavier rear spring saying it would work but not be of a standard that they would be happy to sell, and be better to revalve the Bilsteins with a caveat to do a lot of research on the placing doing this as more than a few are hopeless at it.

I will likely get new Bilsteins revalved for the higher rear spring rates as at 80,000kms the old ones would likely need a rebuild to make the revalving sensible option.

I get the feeling once I do this I will be rewarded with an excellent riding and handling vehicle as the Bilsteins when younger did a reasonable job. Been a lot of hard work not to mention expensive.

It can be a bit of a minefield getting good info for sure.

Billies are between $150-250 to get rebuilt depending on the shock or strut, so is often a much better option, as you end up with a new shock/strut after the rebuild.

For my money, they're still the best aftermarket shock out there in a reasonable price bracket

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

[Flying]

I will give them a ring.

It appears that some of the bigger bore dampeners have clearance issues on the Challenger. Koni Netherlands has made it clear that while their dampeners might fit they should not be used on the rear of the Challenger as the required clearance is not there. Interesting, as they are still listed on many websites as an option. I respect Koni for their upfront honesty but it does rule out an excellent dampener.

Any idea if the same applies to the Pajero Sport Ent? I emailed a Koni dealer but nothing on the list for the PS...

[Ent]

I am tempted to think that the PS rear end is the same as the PB/PC. Ask the local dealer if the part number for the springs is the same.

Your best option might be Bilstein rears. But be aware they are on the PB/PC longer than standard so could strain the brake and rear diff lines. I had to lengthen all my lines.

No, Koni are a no show due to their greater bore. Plenty have fitted them with no issue but occassionly some knock. Probably all the rear bushes need to be in top class order to avoid this.

You will likely have a year or two delay before after market places get their mind around the PS. Also, the PS will need to exhibit better sales than its previous models to get noticed.

[old Jack]

PB/PC Challenger rear coils and shockers are a direct fit onto the Pajero Sport.
I measured this up a few years ago with "Cookie Monster" and his PS, and there is a thread on it in the PS sub-forum.

OJ.

[Flying]

Thanks for the replies... I really like the sound of your sales job on the DMS front end you have Ent, sounds like the back is the problem same as the challenger... It seems people have had troubles with the Bilsteins and OJ seems to want to change his setup away from them (apologies if I have misinterpreted that)...

[old Jack]

Thanks for the replies... I really like the sound of your sales job on the DMS front end you have Ent, sounds like the back is the problem same as the challenger... It seems people have had troubles with the Bilsteins and OJ seems to want to change his setup away from them (apologies if I have misinterpreted that)...

Ent's front suspension cost more than most people spend on both front and rear suspensions fitted but the result is apparently impressive.

I have had problems with Bilsteins at the front, 3 strut failures in under 70,000kms. I believe the problem is the Bilstein struts are not compatible with the Lovells coils, they are not ground flat at the top and the bottom pigtail end is the wrong pitch for the Bilstein strut seat. The result is the strut is preloaded to one side, and this flexes the strut shaft, chops out the seal and scores the one side of the shaft. Other Challenger owners have Bilstein/Kings combo and have had no issues, some installs have in excess of 130,000kms without issue. My current options are Bilstein/King, Oztec/King or Terrain Tamer Smart coils and pro shocks. Undecided at the moment.

My rear Bilsteins have done over 85,000 kms with 3 different sets of Lovells rear coils, all of it 2450kg to 2860kg and about 1/3 off the bitumen so I can not fault the Bilsteins on the rear.

My plans for a CSR have been pushed back another year but I was thinking of redoing the suspension before this trip.

OJ.

[BMN]

About 150k on bilsteins, no issues but standard coils front (no bar) kings rear no rear sway bar. About 60/40 on/offroad. Some like a firmer ride/less body roll etc, but I'm happy with a more subtle ride offroad. Unfortunately there is no one fits all suspension packages.

[Flying]

Thanks OJ.. Just wondering if you can advise the pros and cons you are thinking with those options?
Bilstein/King
Oztec/King
Terrain Tamer Smart coils and pro shocks (still requires a rear option for me)
Also what about Lovells springs and coils all round?

[old Jack]

Thanks OJ.. Just wondering if you can advise the pros and cons you are thinking with those options?
Bilstein/King
Oztec/King
Terrain Tamer Smart coils and pro shocks (still requires a rear option for me)
Also what about Lovells springs and coils all round?

Hi Flying,

Bilstein/King combo has some excellent reports of long life (100,000+kms) but Bilsteins only have a 12 month/20,000km warranty. Kings springs are excellent as long as you select the correct one for the job, I like the fact there is a selection of coils that are progressive rate so these can be better matched to your rear loads, warranty and support is excellent from all reports. Kings have been very helpful with sharing information I need for my "suspension calculator" which is in testing.

Oztec/King combo excellent reports but I have no reports of 100,000km installation.
Oztec warranty on shockers is "limited Lifetime" for original purchaser and original vehicle fittment. King springs as above.

Terrain Tamer Smart Coils and Pro shocks, front only at this stage, coils are made by Kings and are progressive so suit standard to medium rated front ends. I have not been able to get spring rate range yet so I cannot comment on how they may go on heavily loaded fronts (steel bar, winch, 2nd battery & underbody guards). Pro shocks, I like the idea of remote canister shocker for those that travel fast and on endless corrugations, Pro shock have adjustable valve rates and ride heights and this means you can fine tune to you loads, terrain and personal preference. 100.000km/3 year warranty is also attractive. I am trying to find a Pro Shock that will fit and a King EHDVR coil. Work in progress.

Bilstein/Lovells combo, I have had this for 85,000kms of very hard heavy work. 3 Bilstein failures on the front caused by shaft flexing as the Lovells coils is not suited to the Bilstein struts, front Lovells coils is not ground flat at top and pigtail pitch wind does not match the lower spring seat of the Bilstein strut, end result is strut shaft flexes and chews out seals and scores shaft. My rear Bilsteins are still going strong, they have had 3 different sets of Lovells coils over the 85,000km, 14,000kms with linear rate HD raised that where not up to GVM loads, 1,000kms on a replacement set of EHD linear rate raised coils that where a way too high and way too hard, the 70,000kms on EHDVR custom Lovells coils but my kerb weight is 2450kg and touring weights up to 2860kgs (GVM+150kg and at max axle limits).

Old Man Emu, for a one stop shop where you want the suspension fitted and good National warranty then hard to go past OME for light to medium duty recreational use. Springs are made by Kings so no issues there and shockers are made by Monroe so good quality twin tube gas shockers. NitroSport shockers give a harder ride than Nitrocharger shockers.

Coils fail because they are overloaded and/or under dampened by the shockers.
Shockers fail because coils are under sized or too hard for the coil spring rates and loads carried, and running tyre pressures too high.
Tyres fail because they get overloaded and over inflated for there physical construction.

After spending several grand on tyre and suspension upgrades we are reluctant to give the upgrades any limitations and generally have too higher expectation of capacity, performance and durability.

Traveling for extended periods on corrugated roads with high loads puts enormous stress on coils, shockers and tyres, if you get the combination wrong then you have failures, get the combination correct, drive to the conditions and control the loads, then you will have fewer failures. There is no perfect bullet proof, comfortable empty, load carrying suspension and tyre combination that can handle all that we request !

OJ.

[Flying]

Terrain Tamer Smart Coils and Pro shocks, front only at this stage, coils are made by Kings and are progressive so suit standard to medium rated front ends. I have not been able to get spring rate range yet so I cannot comment on how they may go on heavily loaded fronts (steel bar, winch, 2nd battery & underbody guards). Pro shocks, I like the idea of remote canister shocker for those that travel fast and on endless corrugations, Pro shock have adjustable valve rates and ride heights and this means you can fine tune to you loads, terrain and personal preference. 100.000km/3 year warranty is also attractive. I am trying to find a Pro Shock that will fit and a King EHDVR coil. Work in progress.

I definitely like the idea of these and am leaning towards them as the remote canister and adjustability is tempting... let me know what you find for the rear, obviously different but similar car...in your opinion, is the steel bullbar the only item that tips the front weight to 'heavy'? Eg if you have lights, bushskinz, 2nd battery, aerials etc and then either alloy bar or smart +winch, would that still be a candidate for a medium setup? Those things are all installed or in the works but I can't imagine adding a steel bar... already have alloy but will upgrade to smart bar +winch once I hit a few more roos... also how would you compare the pro shocks to the Dobinsons Monotube Remote Reservoir?

[old Jack]

I definitely like the idea of these and am leaning towards them as the remote canister and adjustability is tempting... let me know what you find for the rear, obviously different but similar car...in your opinion, is the steel bullbar the only item that tips the front weight to 'heavy'? Eg if you have lights, bushskinz, 2nd battery, aerials etc and then either alloy bar or smart +winch, would that still be a candidate for a medium setup? Those things are all installed or in the works but I can't imagine adding a steel bar... already have alloy but will upgrade to smart bar +winch once I hit a few more roos... also how would you compare the pro shocks to the Dobinsons Monotube Remote Reservoir?

All weight is accumulative but a steel bar at 60kg to 80kg and a winch 25kg to 35kg mounted 3/4 of a metre forward of the axle put significant loads on the front suspension. 2nd battery and a set of 3 Bushskinz plates have the weight either directly over or rearwards of the front axle so these weights are not subject to the multiplication effect of load transfer.

Dobinson MRR had a bit of a bad start on the Pajero but problems seem to be sorted out, not sure if Smartcoils and Proshocks are availble for the Pajero but for Challenger/Triton, and for similar money you can get Smartcoils and remote canister struts that are adjustable both in dampening and ride height so to me that is an advantage and worth considering.

OJ.