Flasher Relay / LED Indicator problem

[MSF]

Electrical gurus, lend me your ears please...

Recently fitted LED Indicator / Park Lights to my newly refinished ARB bull bar and having a few issues with the Indicators in that they are very dim when they are flashing.. The Parkers light up fine and bright, it's just the indicators..



Vehicle is 1998 Pajero NL GLS 3.5L Auto

This is what I have done so far to try and diagnose..

* ALL other factory vehicle indicators are working fine, not flashing faster / slower etc.
* These LEDs are ADDITIONAL to the factory indicators & parkers
* If I remove a factory incandescent globe from the vehicle, the others flash faster, but there is no change to the LED indicator brightness.
* When connecting the LEDs to direct 12V - they light up perfectly.
* When connecting the Parker LED to the Indicator circuit, it lights up perfectly.
* When connecting the Indicator LED to the Park Light Circuit, it lights up perfectly.
* There are 6 LEDs in the Parker arrangement
* There are 8 LEDs in the Indicator arrangement
* Have double checked all connections and confirmed good earth.
* The indicators are very dim when using the Hazard Lights or the indicators, BUT - they light up much brighter when switching the Alarm on / off (spoke to alarm installer and he confirmed they are given a different signal from the alarm module.
* If I remove the LEDs and reconnect the original Incandescent Indicators from the ARB Bar (21W globe) - they light up perfectly.

Soooo.. It's got me stumped..
Is it the Flasher Relay that needs upgrading ?
If so, does anyone know of a suitable replacement for this that would handle it ?
I don't want to go back to the ARB Amber Incandescent Indicators, I like the cleaner look of the Clear Lenses of the LED.

[nj swb]

Silly question: does it make a difference if the parking lights are switched on or off when they're flashing?

Can you monitor the voltage on the indicator supply wire while they're flashing?

[MSF]

Silly question: does it make a difference if the parking lights are switched on or off when they're flashing?

Can you monitor the voltage on the indicator supply wire while they're flashing?

No, No difference with the parking lights are on or off, the LED indicators are the same.

Haven't managed to measure the actual voltage to the indicator, will do that tonight and report back..
Cheers

[craka]

Do the indicators flash at a normal rate, or are that flashing faster than a normal indicator rate?

[MSF]

Do the indicators flash at a normal rate, or are that flashing faster than a normal indicator rate?

All flash at standard rate regardless if the LEDs are connected or not.
Only time the indicators flash faster is if one of the incandescent bulbs is removed - But then connecting the LEDs makes no difference to the flashing rate - Still faster with the Incandescent globe removed, yet LEDs still not bright.

[nj swb]

I think I've looked at this thread too many times (already) and can no longer help.

This thread has made me insane with jealousy. Your Shorty is looking awesome!

[MSF]

Haha - Thanks for your help.. It's stumping everyone it seems..
My Auto Electrician mate said he lost sleep over it worrying why he can't figure it out..

He suggested an alternative - but as a last resort.
Connect an additional Relay and direct supply for each indicator and use the existing indicator as a trigger.... But he refuses to do this until he has gone bald and has tried everything else.. LOL

Thanks heaps, it's be a long term project, still a fair ways to go though...

[craka]

I'm not certain but I'm wondering if that information on the side of the flashing relay has 3 different modes, and I'm wondering if that with the additional LEDs it doesn't sense a extra load to allow a higher output, where when you put the indacescent globe in it does.


Not sure, maybe you can check with your auto sparkie, if can upgrade to a HD flasher that is suited for trucks with trailers etc, such as listed on here

https://tridon.com.au/products/Tridon/35/478/flashers-and-relays/2000/flasher-relays-electronic

[MSF]

I'm not certain but I'm wondering if that information on the side of the flashing relay has 3 different modes, and I'm wondering if that with the additional LEDs it doesn't sense a extra load to allow a higher output, where when you put the indacescent globe in it does.


Not sure, maybe you can check with your auto sparkie, if can upgrade to a HD flasher that is suited for trucks with trailers etc, such as listed on here
https://tridon.com.au/products/Trido...ays-electronic

Possibly, But as my Auto Sparkie suggested - the extra load from the LEDs would be three-fifths of bugger all anyway, that it shouldn't *see* any extra load to need bumping up.. but anything is possible at the moment..

Another person suggested trying one of these https://www.jaycar.com.au/3-pin-led-...12vdc/p/SY4018 and at $15, I am willing to give it a go to see if it fixes it, Will also looking into the tridon ones you listed. Cheers

[Kingbrown]

All I can think of is that the flasher is supplying a PWM signal to the lamps and the LED's are seeing this as an AC voltage and only illuminating on the positive half cycle of the applied voltage. The incandescents wouldn't care if it's an alternating voltage or not.

An oscilloscope reading of the lamp voltage would be revealing.

A very similar problem as yours is discussed on a bikers forum. The solution was to use a different flasher.

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=135528.0

[Allan2]

Could they be 24 volt LED's?
Allan

[craka]

Possibly, But as my Auto Sparkie suggested - the extra load from the LEDs would be three-fifths of bugger all anyway, that it shouldn't *see* any extra load to need bumping up.. but anything is possible at the moment..

Another person suggested trying one of these https://www.jaycar.com.au/3-pin-led-...12vdc/p/SY4018 and at $15, I am willing to give it a go to see if it fixes it, Will also looking into the tridon ones you listed. Cheers

They are not seen as a normal resistive load which indacasent ibes are, ie purely resistive. For instance in a house scanario step mode transformers that were used for halogen lights often don't work correctly with led replacement.

Can you put a halogen bulb in series with the led set to see if they light up bright with the halogen in series?

[MSF]

All I can think of is that the flasher is supplying a PWM signal to the lamps and the LED's are seeing this as an AC voltage and only illuminating on the positive half cycle of the applied voltage. The incandescents wouldn't care if it's an alternating voltage or not.

An oscilloscope reading of the lamp voltage would be revealing.

A very similar problem as yours is discussed on a bikers forum. The solution was to use a different flasher.

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=135528.0

Thanks, I don't have easy access to an oscilloscope, so will be trying a different relay today.

Could they be 24 volt LED's?
Allan

They are 9-32V - but they work on direct 12V correctly.

They are not seen as a normal resistive load which indacasent ibes are, ie purely resistive. For instance in a house scanario step mode transformers that were used for halogen lights often don't work correctly with led replacement.

Can you put a halogen bulb in series with the led set to see if they light up bright with the halogen in series?

Will try that if I don't have any luck with the replacement relay..

Cheers

[spot01]

Are you sure the LED's polarity is correct when they are connected to the car loom?
If reversed, i would have thought they wouldn't work at all, but perhaps only dimly?


Earth was mentioned before - have you tried a separate earth wire directly onto the LEDs?


Are both sides exactly the same brightness (dim)?

[MSF]

Are you sure the LED's polarity is correct when they are connected to the car loom?
If reversed, i would have thought they wouldn't work at all, but perhaps only dimly?

Earth was mentioned before - have you tried a separate earth wire directly onto the LEDs?

Are both sides exactly the same brightness (dim)?

Yes Polarity checked - Tried them direct to 12V - so definitely know which wire is which.
Yes, Separate Earth has been tried - no difference
Yes, both sides are equally dim.


Tried the new relay (https://www.jaycar.com.au/3-pin-led-...12vdc/p/SY4018) today - No difference, All other incandescent globes flash fine - LED's both Dim....

Back to the drawing board