Preparing a PC Challenger manual for the Simpson

[Ent]

Hi All

After a bit of advice on what is required for the Simpson Desert loop in a PC Challenger manual. Now as a Tasmanian I know stuff all about hot deserts and endless sand dunes. Narrow tracks covered with limbs plus mud and sharp rocks pretty good on though.

My understanding is you have about 500kms between fuel stops and lot of sand in between so fuel consumption can be problematic to guess at. DooSo being a manual is highly unlikely to go above 20/100 I am figuring, but am I figuring right? Also, DooSo as fitted out will be the prime recovery vehicle for the group so maybe so more back tracking required. The idea is to do any side trip.
Looking at a few options.

1. A long range tank is tempting but reading the forum suggests the best offers only 100 litres of effective capacity versus say 65 litres effective capacity standard. If it was say 130 litres then no brainier but lot of money for small extra. Also, in Tassie tank clearance big issue with solid rocks being tank killers so not keen to compromise but having a 1000 km range rather tempting.

2. Plan to run second complete spare. Roof basket sounds the go for it but with say 30 litres of diesel in 10 litre containers I will be pushing the roof's loading. Not sure what the LT spare will weigh.

3. Toying with the http://www.tyretrek.com.au/ option with twin jerry cans so forty litres but not sure on cost and annoyance value of the swinging it away to open the rear hatch. Anyone used one with standard Challenger towbar? Basically how does fact mingle with marketing claims? If the go then roof basket can take extra fuel. Not a lover of fuel in the cabin.

4. Water needed?

5. Any idea on spares apart from putty, tape, tools, etc? Some people travel with almost second vehicle in bits and others not so much. Weight is a concern as I tend to pack heaps of tools plus Tirfor Winch, and recovery gear that has a habit of adding up to weigh a lot.

6. Tyre choice. I have 265 70R16 ATs, 265 75R16 Muddies, 235 85R16 ATs. Each will need an extra tyre brought to make set of six. All are naturally LT construction.

7. Roof pod a good or bad idea instead of a basket? Any brands to get or avoid?

8. Looking at May 2017 or September 2017.

9. As a bushwalker always take PLB.

10. I do not run a bullbar and do not plan one. Ideal would be Smartbar winch compatible but as no such beast exists rather not going to happen. Bumper bar gradually losing paint so might decide on bullbar one day, but only if winch compatible.

11. Anything else to consider?

Cheers

[BMN]

Full basket roof rack. Takes tools box, 20lts fuel, 10lts water, tents and easy to throw camp chairs up fire wood etc etc. A trailer net is easy to keep everything up there. Theres are couple of camp chairs lying around remote WA tracks from forgetting to throw the net over
Spares i would keep it simple down too full set of engine belts, maybe a front drive shaft. A few people have snapped/bent rear panhard rods, so a nice cut to length piece of angle iron and 4 suitable size u-bolts will get you to the next welder.
How many people traveling in your wagon ?

[old Jack]

In blue below in your post. OJ.

Hi All

After a bit of advice on what is required for the Simpson Desert loop in a PC Challenger manual. Now as a Tasmanian I know stuff all about hot deserts and endless sand dunes. Narrow tracks covered with limbs plus mud and sharp rocks pretty good on though.

My understanding is you have about 500kms between fuel stops and lot of sand in between so fuel consumption can be problematic to guess at. DooSo being a manual is highly unlikely to go above 20/100 I am figuring, but am I figuring right? Also, DooSo as fitted out will be the prime recovery vehicle for the group so maybe so more back tracking required. The idea is to do any side trip.
Looking at a few options.
Ent, do you have a proposed route you are wanting to take, this will determine how much fuel you will need.

1. A long range tank is tempting but reading the forum suggests the best offers only 100 litres of effective capacity versus say 65 litres effective capacity standard. If it was say 130 litres then no brainier but lot of money for small extra. Also, in Tassie tank clearance big issue with solid rocks being tank killers so not keen to compromise but having a 1000 km range rather tempting.
I use 10 litres jerries, back seat is removed and a special storage box is fitted, this keeps diesel and water forward of the rear axle and down nice and low. No issue with diesel in the cabin if packed correctly.

2. Plan to run second complete spare. Roof basket sounds the go for it but with say 30 litres of diesel in 10 litre containers I will be pushing the roof's loading. Not sure what the LT spare will weigh.
We only carry a spare tyre carcass and a tube (but I do have the gear and skill to change tyres on & off rims as well as do on rim repairs), 4 Maxtraxs, camping chairs and tables and a ground sheet on our roof platform that is clamped to the factory rails, about 65kg in total.

3. Toying with the http://www.tyretrek.com.au/ option with twin jerry cans so forty litres but not sure on cost and annoyance value of the swinging it away to open the rear hatch. Anyone used one with standard Challenger towbar? Basically how does fact mingle with marketing claims? If the go then roof basket can take extra fuel. Not a lover of fuel in the cabin. High risk off road, chances of it failing before you get to the sand dunes are high due to corrugations on all roads leading into the Simpson.

4. Water needed?
We allow 3 litres per person per day and carry about 3 days extra than our plans require but we are very economical on water use. Most people waste too much water therefore have to carry too much water.

5. Any idea on spares apart from putty, tape, tools, etc? Some people travel with almost second vehicle in bits and others not so much. Weight is a concern as I tend to pack heaps of tools plus Tirfor Winch, and recovery gear that has a habit of adding up to weigh a lot.
If your car is well serviced and belts and hoses are in good condition then no need to carry spares, most likely issue if any will be electrical so have lots of spare fuses, multimeter and hard copies of the circuit diagrams. Self repairing tape, share the weight of spare oils and fluids between all that are going. If your battery is 3 years or older then replace this as older batteries are likely to drop cells if they are not used to corrugated roads.

6. Tyre choice. I have 265 70R16 ATs, 265 75R16 Muddies, 235 85R16 ATs. Each will need an extra tyre brought to make set of six. All are naturally LT construction.
Any will do, if you go in May (if the desert is even open, sometimes not until June or even July) then chances are the lakes could be muddy so I would run the most aggressive tyre. If traveling in September chances are the desert sands will be dry and soft so AT's will be a better choice.

7. Roof pod a good or bad idea instead of a basket? Any brands to get or avoid?
Keep it simple and light, thats why I have a platform.

8. Looking at May 2017 or September 2017. See comments above!

9. As a bushwalker always take PLB. Good idea, as is a Sat phone between the group.

10. I do not run a bullbar and do not plan one. Ideal would be Smartbar winch compatible but as no such beast exists rather not going to happen. Bumper bar gradually losing paint so might decide on bullbar one day, but only if winch compatible.
Recovery tracks and compressor are more useful in the desert than a winch.

11. Anything else to consider?
Underbody protection.
Travels as light as possible.
Test load your suspension and make sure you have enough suspension travel in compression otherwise you will bottom out continuously and this is uncomfortable but also loads up tyre sidewalls and can cause failures and track damage.

Cheers

[conquistador]

Got to be carefull with roofracks on two fronts. Weight as you've mentioned and how the rack attaches to the roof. If its one where the feet clamp around the top of thedoorframe it may not make it.

I drove across the desert in a v6td navara at gvm and it used about 18l per hundred. Still When i next go i will be applying the colin chapman principle of "simplify and add lightness" weight is the number 2 killer behind driving style.

Had a mate that used an old fuel tank from "something small from the 70's" as their auxiliary fuel tank. A couple of straps and breathers or two for oh&s and off they went.

[Ent]

Plans not fully formed but one to two people in the Challenger. Be good to have a car that can take four so thinking of keeping rear seats up. Brother signed up with 2004 2.8 turbo Triton flat tray so tyres will be interchangeable as he runs 265 75R16. September/October in now the plan so say 235 85R16 ATs as I have plenty of matching Triton rims. Goodbye another $300 for a BFG KO2. Helps also rear clearance slightly with thinner tyre.

Ok roof loading is say full spare, four Maxitraxs, shovel, maybe chair and camp stretcher. Fuel? Um? Maybe not up top given likely on max weight with what mentioned.

As bushwalker use to water conservation so again based on people use say five litres per person per day plus spare. Maybe 40 litres.

Fuel is the challenge if I want to keep it out of the cabin. Still tempted by the towbar mounting system. As usual on this forum lot of hypothetical reasons why things will not work, or how they will fail, but no actual reports.

I run a three bike rack which is long and say sixty kilograms and not a problem so not as frighten as others by the towbar solution. Say 25 kilograms for rack, 25 kilograms for spare and 50 kilograms of fuel so 100 kilograms all up. Hardly massive weight given 300 kilogram down weight allowed. Yes twisting load is an issue,but so can a caravan put such load on on uneven ground, so no likely issue on static twist weight. Dynamic load with vibrations is always a chooks lottery, hence curious by other people's real world experience. On paper a "perfect" solution. Trouble in Tassie very few long corrugated roads so hard to test. Challenger has very short distance from bar to ball with the factory towbar so not so worried by long leverage.

I think most people understand that I am not afraid of new ideas with rather long modification list to my Challenger. Though lot of research and Deep thought gone into each one. Result is a very capable off road vehicle that has actually improved its crusing ability. But still many bad ideas with some accessories to be avoided so guided by others. I have mechanic sympathy so very rarely break stuff on a vehicle.

As for route not sure. Our "group navigator" is a wiz so leave that up to him but I would imagine he aims for most scenic/challenging route. Read reports Pajeros use 120-130 litres. Would not imagine Challenger using much less so 65 tank, 40 towbar solution and with spare taken care off the roof then say 20-30 on roof basket. Brothers Triton will need say 100 litres in reserve but as flat tray no issues.

Winch might be tossed out unless we sneak in a Flinders Range experience. Actually winch almost mandatory in Tassie but having said that only used my Tirfor once, though close needing it one other time.

Still toying with long range tank but not many long term reports on them apart from initial ones with broken mounts. Told that is fixed.

[itsamitsi]

If you can go 600k's you'll be right. And yes the bum will hit the deck many times if your suspension's not up to the sand dune hopping duties. A/T's would be my choice but muddies will do it too just gotta let em' down a bit more. I dragged a 4T Landcruiser through there with muddies and no real problems. Just watch what looks to be dried up mud as it only may be a crust (as I found out!) luckily the lockers were there and got a workout......

[old Jack]

Suggest you utilise the ute (no pun intended) to carry fuel forward of the rear axle and you offer to carry a second fridge or food for your brother in a nice, dust free cabin.

September/October could be warm so 5 litres per day per person is a good idea.

Detour via the Flinders Ranges is worthwhile, you could spend weeks there and not see everything so you will just have to pick 1 spot and enjoy it!

Biggest issue with weight rear of the axle is the leverage effect this has when traveling the scalloped approaches to the sand dunes in the Simpson, these load up and test your suspension big time. 1100 sand dunes up to 25 metres in height can and will take a toll on the rear suspension particularly the shockers.

OJ.

[shortSteve]

Awesome scenery out there, we crossed west to east the week after Finke, notable plusses and minuses were sand was firmish due to recent rain, but track was deeply rutted/wombat holes both sides, and the lake crossing near Poeppel corner was a chewed up mess...

Ok, we filled in Mt Dare, and I made it to Birdsville with reserve light coming on (10L remaining) just after Big Red. Fill took 95ish litres, tank could hold 105 at a push but bank on 100L (outback accessories long range tank). I also had 2 x 20L jerry cans on the roof, along with a full size spare on steel rim. we calculated fuel use at 17-18L/100km, however if it had of been drier, I recon 25L/100 with how bad it was chopped up...
I run a std 2in type lift (front heavy springs to suit bulbar, even though I only run a nudge bar, rear is a set of heavy springs off a kia iirc, stiffer than challenger springs but a few mm shorter, ebh around 565 f and 595 r loaded).
Tyres, was a punishing trip from Mt Dare to Dalhousie, as was the road from Oodnadatta, definite the strongest construction you can get. I ran Bridgestone D674 265/75/16, gearing was fine (auto) and low range was only needed for 2 dunes and the lake crossing (plus big red), most dunes with a lil momentum in second with a shift back to first at the summit, where MANY of the dunes have a sharp turn. Despite dragging the belly for nearly every climb, only 2 required a second attempt, pressures kept at 18psi for whole trip except big red (10psi for the extra steep climb to the left, which got the front airborn on cresting lip hehe).
I had rear seat removed, a footwell 40L water tank for emergency water (rest was a carton or 2 of bottles) and milk crates/plastic tubs filling this void with spares (hoses/belts/filters), hand winch, spare fluids and some extra tools. In hindsight I blew both rear shocks on a mercy dash back to Mt dare on the way back west which later cost me a spring also, but driven sensibly/slowly this wouldn't be an issue, but a strut/shock may have been a good spare too.
Back to tyres, my fronts survived the 7500km absolutely unscathed, but the rears, while tread blocks and side walls were fine, the tread carcass has hundred of little cuts in it from the sharp rocks around Dalhousie (and towing a second vehicle, but that's another issue), some of them deep enough to tear a little of the nylon cord in places, so be mindful of what your driving over and slow right down for those roacky sections. It took us nearly 8 hours to get from Oodnadatta to Mt Dare via Dalhousie, it was horrendous!
We found lots of guys having issues with the sand (even though it was firm), none of them wanted lower than mid 20's psi pressure and scoffed at our suggestions to drop a bit, coming from west beach drives were we start at 15 psi and go down from there, this attitude seemed very close minded, so be weary of that if inexperienced on sand, drop some pressure, drop some speed, and the challenger will crawl over it easy!


sS

[nj swb]

When I crossed in 2006, Mt Dare to Birdsville via Rig Road / WAA line was 595km.

When I crossed in 2011, along French line, with a detour to Rig Road (up & down Colson) and another to skirt around a flooded Eyre Creek crossing, it was over 700km Oodnadatta to Birdsville.

The 2011 trip my manual petrol shorty used 120 litres - don't remember figures for other vehicles.

The 2006 trip, I think a diesel 90 Prado & 80 Series each used 95 litres Oodnadatta to Birdsville, my shorty used 95 litres from Mt Dare, and a diesel Rodeo used 65 litres from Mt Dare.

If travelling with another vehicle with compatible wheels & tyres, why carry 6 spares per vehicle? What are the odds that two vehicles will both have two irreparable tyre failures? In a similar vein, do all vehicles need comprehensive spanner & socket sets?

I like the "travel light" approach. Don't think "I might need it", think "what will happen if I don't have it?"

[Ent]

Good info.

Rear springs might need to be switched out as current setup designed for normal duty work, and very impressive with mid load. Run 16mm but have spare 17mm Dobinson that start out lot higher, 600mm versus 577mm. Though do like my custom rears as all bumpstops work as designed with them. 17mm might scrag out before bumpstops. Bilsteins should be ok providing cooling off time. Front 800lb springs and basically off road racer Drummond setup so not an issue I hope.

Yeap, with factory towbar well use to rear thump. Diff locks alround will allow less need for momentum. Found Challenger remarkably good in sand but agree AT better option as muddies need to be aired down more and prone to dig in quick. 18PSI or even 16PSI I find works well. Mid twenties hardly makes a difference from normal road pressures when using LT tyres.

Brother's ute give good option as mule but like to be self sufficient with extra fuel he can carry as backup. 600km at 20/100 means 120 litres total so explains the Pajeros' figures.

Yeap, new battery sounds a goer as vibration can kill old ones. Means about three and half years on original one. Any really good batteries out there such as the special sorts?

[old Jack]

While you are swapping the rear coils, I suggest you consider upgrading the rubber cone springs at the sam time, $125 and a few extra minutes to fit and these will take the deep compression loads off your springs, shockers and articulation stops.

https://www2.pajeroclub.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=45233

OJ.

[whereswes]

Hey Ent,

Also looking at another Simpson crossing late Q3 or early Q4 next year.

Long range tank - I've got the BD long range tank. Doesn't impact on departure angle and ground clearance only suffers by about 5mm or so. $1,100 for the equivalent of a couple of jerrys is steep but ..... it's still a couple of jerrys less. If your back yard is the rocky hill trails around the Apple Isle, you're right to question for 2 reasons. Your ramp over angle is impacted due to the extra length forward and you now have no stone guard (still looking to fabricate one but struggling to come up with a design that picks up more than 3 solid mounting points).

Roof racks - Be careful with loadings. It's gonna take a pounding - unavoidable as some of the dunes require decent momentum but are chopped up at the base, also there's some pretty tight turns at the base of some of the dunes.

Could you drop seating from 4 to 3? If so, you could remove the double seat (and a lot of weight) and fabricate up a wheel carrier to bolt into the seat mounts. Removes serious weight from your roof. Planning to design and weld one up during Xmas shut down.

Water needed? Personally I think that 5lt pp max is heaps for drinking and wash up unless you plan to have a bath. I'm not sure where the 20l per person per day comes from. A couple of packs of baby wipes are light and small and can give you a decent wash, particularly important if you're sharing a tent. Do recommend carrying water in multiple smaller containers. If one of your tent pegs jams through your 25L container, you've lost a lot of water. Packed in 10s or 5s lessens the risk.

Spares - Only thing I would add to OJ's comments is a scan gauge or at least some way to read fault codes, together with a printed list of the fault code descriptions. If you throw a fault code you can not only track down what caused it but can clear the code if you believe you have rectified.

Tires - Maybe just personal choice but I always prefer quality ATs to Muddies in the desert or on the beach. Greater surface contact area and less trenching when it's gets really powdery.

Winch? - only of real value in the Simpson if you've got a mate with solid footing within reach to winch off. At that stage, why wouldn't you just snatch? Personally I think Maxtrax/Treds and a long handled shovel are far more value in the Simpson.

Anything else to consider?

• Camp away from any permanent or semi permanent water source. Unless you're in a roof top tent, the bush rats will annoy the crap out of you all night and they're big buggers.
• Airbags or Pedders cones to help bottoming out the rear end.

Cheers
Wes

[Ent]

Ok a few needed

Will check out the Pedder cones as makes sense. Did look at 80 series ones but new custom variable diameter 10mm to 16mm springs solved the bottoming out issue for most work. Heavy rear springs might be needed as the 17mm ones come in at 605mm unloaded and I want say at least 552mm on the rear EBH. My custom springs are not intended for max GVM and come in 577mm without load as wanted to stick to factory maximum height for general use. Might do a load test. Of course where the weight is critical as mid point is back of front seats with 50/50 load spread front and rear. Might be even the 17mm springs will not achieve my minimum height at GVM.

Interested in the long range tank. Bit worried by earlier reports of mounting points breaking and need to think long and hard about something generally not needed in Tassie. But like the idea it puts variable weight in the centre of the chassis.

Good advice on rodent issue. In Tassie we are getting increasing issues from animals due to tourist feeding them. Some native crows have got very good at breaking into luggage.

Did think of roof top tent but they fall into love or hate category and not sure what camp I am in. Toying with Anaconda Dune type tent as spent too many years bushwalking crawling around on my knees in hiking tents. Plan a bit of luxury camping for a change.

[spot01]

If the Anaconda Dune type tent is the single pole type, consider getting the twin side poles as an option if more than one person is using the tent.

[BruceandBobbi]

Good advice on rodent issue. In Tassie we are getting increasing issues from animals due to tourist feeding them. Some native crows have got very good at breaking into luggage.

Think you will find they are Ravens ENT. There are no Crows in Tassie. Yes they are very intelligent.