2019 Siberia and Central Asia overland thread

[old Jack]

Good choice - I am on my 2nd one after the first one wore out after 20 years regular use... They are reliable, effective & versatile regarding fuel choice.

My Coleman dual fuel Compact 2 burner is 25 years old and still going strong. I gave replaced the needle valve once and with regular maintenance it has been a reliable stove that is very powerful. They do take a bit of getting use to so you need to have a slight technical ability and not take short cuts when using them. We use Shellite and a 5 litre jerry lasts for a 2 to 3 week trip when cooking for 4 people.


OJ.

[Scrambler]

I would stongly recommend Adventuring with Children by Nan Jeffrey. Everything you could want to know and some good tips on making it interesting for kids.

I agree with Nan's take on cooking though, which is aimed at hiking/cycling/boating needs and includes only a single burner stove. Personally I would be running a kero/diesel stove like an Optimus Hiker+: and these are what the Antarctic expeditions did and do use. Saves mixing and matching fuels by burning whatever your car uses. Much smaller than the Coleman so lets you pack other useful things. You could go smaller and lighter but the Optimus will run no matter what. Colemans are less forgiving and need a vapourising fuel.

The solution to one burner is cooking a separate carbohydrate (rice, pasta, potato etc) in one pot by bringing to the boil then setting aside. Cook meat, veges and flavours is a second pot while waiting for retained heat to sort the first.

[KiwiNTPajero]

re the rear storage unit pull out all the black plastic trim i bet there many litres to be gained.....condensation must be an issue in siberia with those underground tanks or maybe the temp is very consistent. 1 year??? Care for a 65 yr old tag along????
are you going to return to the UK or will you be returnig to Aotearoa

[erad]

Kiwi: Careful - if you are not careful, you will have half of this forum joining you on this trip...

[kiwi1973]

Kiwi:
Regarding cold temperatures, they operate diesel equipment in the Antarctic. From memory, they used straight kerosene (not sure if it was aviation kero or domestic heating kero). It may be worthwhile contacting NZ Antarctic division or at least the Australian Antarctic division in Hobart Tas to get their comments about diesel in cold conditions. Also, kerosene and cold conditions may be mutually acceptable - certainly for older type diesel engines. Not sure about the CRD case though...

Pajeros meant for cold conditions have a diesel heater included in their specification. Not sure if yours has a fuel line heater fitted, but it may be worth checking.

Antifreeze is another consideration. In the Antarctic, they used 50% antifreeze/50% water. Apparently this gives a lower freeze point that straight antifreeze.

Regarding lubricity of the fuel, I suggest that you contact Cost Effective Maintenance and ask them directly what they recommend for the places you intend to visit. I have previously sent you a PM regarding travel in Mongolia. In the clip referenced they talked about quality of diesel early in the clip but then waffled on elsewhere about the country.

I spent some time researching fuels used in Siberia and overall have come away confident in using my common rail engine on this trip - with the previously referred to protections in place. The impression I came away with is that petrol engines are preferred for winter use in the extreme cold. However, diesel is still available and used, but in cooler climates it's a winter blend (as occurs in Europe also, though presumably the blend differs as temps are less extreme). I believe winter blend diesel contains kerosene. This is potentially an issue for a CRD engine, as kerosene offers lower lubricity to fuel system components that depends on optimal lubricity. I have had discussions with the NZ importer of the Cost Effective Maintenance product called 'CRD Fuel Enhancer'. I've actually been using this product ever since I got my car back from having new fuel injection components fitted. It's not a product you can 'feel' working, but I hope that in the background it's aiding lubricity. Seems bizarre that 10ml of this product could possibly meaningfully effect the lubricity of 80 litres of diesel, but I believe it to be a reputable product and company. We'll be taking a supply of this product with us.

[kiwi1973]

Good to see a couple of positive endorsements of the Coleman Dual Fuel stove. I did look at a MSR multi fuel hiking style stove (possibly similar to the Optimus mentioned) - I liked that it could run on even more fuels including diesel. But ultimately I was swayed by the Coleman being a twin burner and big enough and heavy duty enough to cook for the whole family on.

As for the question whether we will return to NZ after this trip.... we'll decide later. At this point I feel inclined to just head off on this trip and see where it leads. I know that may sound incredibly vague and open ended to some. There are some circumstances involved.

We have most things planned as far as Europe, including having a white Christmas 2019 in a small village in the south of France - my sister lives in Melbourne but will be having Christmas 2019 at her French Mother in law's. My partner, Sylwia, is originally from Poland and has been missing a white Christmas. I too grew fond of them and two of my kids had their early days with winter Christmas'.

Then we are likely to return for a further tour of Morocco, which is also a great place to escape the northern hemisphere winter. South of the Atlas mountains the winters are dry and warm and not too hot. We loved Morocco on our previous two tours and have some unfinished routes there. Last time we were there we ended up having to abruptly turn the Shogun around to out-run a big flash flood that would have been disastrous if it had caught up with us before we got to high ground! And though I don't know if there's profitable demand for an overlanding 4wd guide to Morocco, I've considered that if we do a 3rd tour there I might end up writing such a book, complete with GPS waypoint files.

In late 2019 or early 2020 we may venture into Iran, which I believe to be safe.

By the way, and I think I've mentioned this before, there is a NZ company offering tag-along style 4wd tours from Vladivostok to London. Their tour takes 82 days and costs about $80,000 per vehicle for up to two occupants. I find that expensive though - $1,000 per day and you are still providing your own 4wd, fuel etc. $1,000 is quite a lot of money in some of these very poor countries. Plus 82 days could feel pretty rushed for such a vast itinerary.

[cruisn06]

I am so following this... might even follow you in person... got room for a shorty ns in that sea container???? hahah. great work

[Scrambler]

I own a Coleman Duel Fuel, small single burner. There are plusses and minuses for any design. Coleman stoves do not cope well with impure fuels as they rely on vapourisation and don't have a good method of cleaning the vapourisation tube when it gets clogged with non-vapourising crud. They are best on purified non-automotive gasoline (Coleman Fuel/Shellite/white gas).

If the Coleman is your single option you need to make sure you can strip down and clean the piping. Check if you need to carry some parts.

I own a 1960s Optimus. It will run on anything that resembles diesel.

I've used a MSR and they are designed for the kind of troubles you will get, in that they can be stripped down and cleaned. The trouble is the lack of stability. The cure is to install the MSR into the base of a Trangia. But that resembles a regular stove less and less. Good in any weather though!

Now dont ignore the book suggestion just because you ignore me. Its right up your alley, unlike my stove pessimism. :-)

[kiwi1973]

I own a Coleman Duel Fuel, small single burner. There are plusses and minuses for any design. Coleman stoves do not cope well with impure fuels as they rely on vapourisation and don't have a good method of cleaning the vapourisation tube when it gets clogged with non-vapourising crud. They are best on purified non-automotive gasoline (Coleman Fuel/Shellite/white gas).

If the Coleman is your single option you need to make sure you can strip down and clean the piping. Check if you need to carry some parts.

I own a 1960s Optimus. It will run on anything that resembles diesel.

I've used a MSR and they are designed for the kind of troubles you will get, in that they can be stripped down and cleaned. The trouble is the lack of stability. The cure is to install the MSR into the base of a Trangia. But that resembles a regular stove less and less. Good in any weather though!

Now dont ignore the book suggestion just because you ignore me. Its right up your alley, unlike my stove pessimism. :-)

I have researched the Coleman as much as possible prior to purchase, with a particular emphasis on how to service it if it should get gunked up running on petrol. My initial trials here have been running it on very clean burning Shellite sold by the local Bunnings, but I know that in many countries we'll go through we cannot rely on finding such a clean fuel and will likely have to resort to petrol of varying quality. This isn't optimal for the stove, but I have read that quite a few with a passion for 4wding around the world rely on the Coleman Dual Fuel products and I've seen various tips posted online for how to clean these stoves. A spare part I was considering carrying for it was the 'generator', which is what Coleman call the vaporising tube. However, I see that this can be easily dismantled - it all just screws together. When dismantled the spring and needle inside can be removed for cleaning. Someone I saw was using a rifle cleaning kit to maintain their stove generator. I've also seen some suggest occasionally mixing fuel injector cleaner into the mix - it can apparently dissolve deposits as it would in a car engine situation.

So I think I can keep the stove running satisfactorily just by occasional dismantling and cleaning. But if any long term Coleman Stove owners on this forum have suggestions for spare parts that I should carry that would be taken seriously into consideration, as once on the road/track parts like this may be difficult to find.

I did take a look at the book suggestion. It's an interesting topic because we have so often heard that it's not possible to travel as we do with kids. But as we've done quite a bit of this sort of travel now with the kids we strongly believe it is entirely possible. That said, I must admit that in our situation it has been massively beneficial that Sylwia is a qualified and experienced school teacher who is well placed to ensure the kids school education is more than maintained - our eldest child (Marcel - 9 years) was admitted to an advanced level when we came back to NZ and now already again tests another year in advance of his school age - in other words he is top of class here.

[TomW]

Sounds like an amazing adventure you have planned. Just thought I would share my experiences using a Coleman dual fuel stove over the past few years.

While they are designed to run on dual fuel i.e. petrol and white gas / coleman fuel the petrol does burn dirtier (even more so if only poor quality fuel is available) and will eventually clog the generator. Even though the generator can be cleaned it is rather fragile so it would be worth while carrying a spare in case of breakages. The petrol is also more volatile and smelly than white gas and can leave a residue on cooking equipment.

As above I typically use white gas, on longer trips I will carry a 2L tin of white gas which is enough fuel for around a month cooking for 2 people twice a day. If at all possible it might be worth purchasing white gas at some point and carrying a quantity (i.e. 5L - 10L) which will remove the need to clean the generator.

In terms of other spares I would recommend carrying a spare pump, generator, valve stem packing and tank cap. If any of these things fail the stove will be unusable and finding spares in remote parts of the world might be difficult. When packing my stove I wrap the tank in a rag which prevents it from rattling about in the case, I also carry in the stove case a bbq lighter and a filter funnel for refueling.

[kiwi1973]

Sounds like an amazing adventure you have planned. Just thought I would share my experiences using a Coleman dual fuel stove over the past few years.

While they are designed to run on dual fuel i.e. petrol and white gas / coleman fuel the petrol does burn dirtier (even more so if only poor quality fuel is available) and will eventually clog the generator. Even though the generator can be cleaned it is rather fragile so it would be worth while carrying a spare in case of breakages. The petrol is also more volatile and smelly than white gas and can leave a residue on cooking equipment.

As above I typically use white gas, on longer trips I will carry a 2L tin of white gas which is enough fuel for around a month cooking for 2 people twice a day. If at all possible it might be worth purchasing white gas at some point and carrying a quantity (i.e. 5L - 10L) which will remove the need to clean the generator.

In terms of other spares I would recommend carrying a spare pump, generator, valve stem packing and tank cap. If any of these things fail the stove will be unusable and finding spares in remote parts of the world might be difficult. When packing my stove I wrap the tank in a rag which prevents it from rattling about in the case, I also carry in the stove case a bbq lighter and a filter funnel for refueling.

Thanks for this. I anticipate that in more remote areas we will have no option but to run on petrol and hence I am expecting the generator to get clogged at some point, maybe even regularly. However, I was coming around to the idea I could just keep cleaning it. Isn't it just a long needle and spring inside the generator? Seems like with care this could be taken apart and cleaned easily enough, though you say it is fragile and are presumably speaking with experience of these cookers that I've not yet gained? How long does the pump typically last? I see it has a small oil hole to keep it lubricated. I think by 'valve stem' you are referring to the small lever that is turned to the up position for lighting. Whilst I know this is supposed to adjust the needle in the generator I can't honestly say that I can notice it having any effect on the flame at all.

[erad]

Kiwi:
Since you are already talking to Cost Effective Maintenance about additives for your diesel, why not ask them the same questions about your stove and generator? I am sure they would have something to sell to you. My experience with CEM thusfar has been positive (and I have no commercial connections with them either unfortunately).

[TomW]

I guess my experience with one of these Coleman stoves comes from owing a 2nd hand stove that already had many years use so yours may go longer without the issues I have seen.

The first being the valve stem packing, this is a small graphite bush that seals the main fuel valve, after time this becomes worn and causes fuel to leak. It can be fixed by tightening the nut behind the fuel valve but eventually mine completely failed and needed to be replaced.

The pump didn't really give any warning, it was fine cooking dinner then the next morning when going to light the stove it would not build any pressure. I regularly oiled it but I guess it was just old.

I have cleaned the generator a few times and my comment re the fragility is related to the fine needle at the tip of the generator, I believe this needle in conjunction with the lever adjusts the air fuel ratio making the stove easier to light. You probably wouldn't have any issues cleaning it multiple times, I am more thinking the scenario if it gets dropped or damaged, not sure what effect it would have on the stove but I assume it might be difficult to light?

This page has lots of good information if you have not already seen it, its written for an older stove but pretty much everything is applicable to the newer models as well.

http://www.oldtowncoleman.com/tech/re2stovea.htm

[kiwi1973]

Thanks for posting that info. That's a resource I might return to in the future. Here's more info specifically on using the Coleman dual fuel stove on petrol in a long term overlanding situation (also quite an interesting website/blog generally). https://landcruisingadventure.com/th...coleman-stove/. Note that he adds some injector cleaner to the fuel and finds that it helps to keep the generator clean.

[kiwi1973]

Just a quick update - we're still on track with this trip. It's a bit daunting trying to get everything prepared. We'll be packing up and moving out of our house over the Xmas and New Year period. I've also got a number of projects on the go with the Shogun, mostly preventative maintenance to ensure it's as reliable as possible ahead of the trip. Some of these things don't have to be done pre xmas, but all need to be done before the Paj ships in March. And the sooner the better so that everything has opportunity to be tested during an offroad circuit of the South Island Jan/Feb. Additionally there are passports, country visas and also special permits required for restricted areas of some of the countries. We'll be driving right along the border with China in places, and also tracing the Tajikistan/Afghanistan border through the Pamir mountains (peaks over 7,000 metres!), which requires special permits to be shown at remote military checkpoints.

I am building a website to showcase this trip and quite excited about doing so. We expect to attract some sponsorship from 4wd product manufacturers, which is all new. The website will host our regular blog, photos and videos, route maps and more. I intend to make a series of videos as we go and yesterday upgraded my video editing software to the most fully featured version that will enable me to do such cool things as begin each video with a map of the relevant country with a little symbol of my Shogun driving the route on the map - just so that it is clear where each video was filmed. I've been warned to take care with my drone in some countries - some of these countries have been known to seize or destroy drones.

Venturing into building a website and having a sponsor or two is all new for me. Our past trips were private - the only places I shared details of our adventures was on a private online blog that was restricted just to friends and family, but as many here know I also subsequently posted some threads here showcasing tales and photos, and some of those threads proved very popular. With that in mind the first place I will announce the new website, when it's up an running, is here on the Pajeroclub forum. I'll still check in here too as we travel, but I anticipate it's going to be very very busy on this trip. Trips like this are not to be confused with 'holidays'. This may require some explanation - there's a lot of work to be done and it's not always relaxing. Routes will be off-road and I'll be kept busy plotting out the detailed waypoints closer to each stage. Sylwia (who works as a teacher) needs to keep time aside to ensure our two school age children (10, 5 and 3) keep up with a correspondence school curriculum that they are being enrolled in. I will be kept busy editing photos, videos and maintaining the website, alongside needing to find time to manage my 'business' as we travel. I also need to attend to keeping the Shogun/Pajero running well. And finally I'd like to do some freelance writing for magazines. I currently have an opportunity to submit a series of articles to a NZ based 4wd magazine, which seems a good place to start out and build up a CV of freelance work.

The entire Central Asian world region (the ....stans) is generating new interest as a travel destination. It's really only opened up over the last few years, prior to which it would have been exceedingly difficult to obtain the needed visas and permits. It still is in Turkmenistan. It's also an area with poor infrastructure outside of bigger cities, owing to Governments that don't have the resources to build real roads in all (most) areas. I personally see this as an attraction. We've already noted from previous trips that poor countries and areas are often extremely rich in culture and traditions and often the most vibrant and interesting places to visit. I'm 100% confident Mongolia and the ....stans will not disappoint in this regard and look forward to taking you all on another adventure with us, this time live.