No Man's Land Suspension - Too heavy for HD, Too light for EHD

[SONICMASD]

Hi All,

I've found myself in no man's land when it comes to my front suspension.

I have 134kgs of added weight on the front and this is too much for every manufacturer's HD springs that I've found. Most HD springs seem to say 100kgs is the max. I know someone with almost the same set up as me and their Lovell's HD springs sagged down from the 40-50mm of normal lift to 20-30mm which is not ideal.

Knowing this, I took a chance on the EHD Diesel Springs from Lovells (paired with Bilstein 4600 shocks) and as you might expect, they are way too firm and super harsh. Even with all of this weight, the front is still 60mm higher, which is too high and is putting downward force on the rear springs.

My Pajero's Specs:

2005 NP 3.8L V6 Petrol

Front Additional Weight: 295lbs (134kg)

ARB Bumper: 110
Winch: 55
Skid Plates: 45
Bigger Battery & Fuse Box: 30
1/2 of Middle of Vehicle Additional Weight (Rock Sliders, Skid plates, Water Jug): 75
Less Factory Equipment Removed: Original Bumper: -20


I spoke with Lovells about this and their suggestion was to replace the EHD with HD and put a spacer on top of the strut or move the spring perch up on the Bilstein's to achieve the desired lift but I don't want to increase the preload on the coils for fear of yet again, having a harsh ride or having alignment problems.

Does anyone have any ideas? Do any of you have Lovell's HD Springs in the Front with similar or greater weight on them than I do and have they sagged down as well?

Picture Here: https://www.instagram.com/p/B7oLeumHfZy/

[twisted32]

Hi All,

I've found myself in no man's land when it comes to my front suspension.

I have 134kgs of added weight on the front and this is too much for every manufacturer's HD springs that I've found. Most HD springs seem to say 100kgs is the max. I know someone with almost the same set up as me and their Lovell's HD springs sagged down from the 40-50mm of normal lift to 20-30mm which is not ideal.

Knowing this, I took a chance on the EHD Diesel Springs from Lovells (paired with Bilstein 4600 shocks) and as you might expect, they are way too firm and super harsh. Even with all of this weight, the front is still 60mm higher, which is too high and is putting downward force on the rear springs.

My Pajero's Specs:

2005 NP 3.8L V6 Petrol

Front Additional Weight: 295lbs (134kg)

ARB Bumper: 110
Winch: 55
Skid Plates: 45
Bigger Battery & Fuse Box: 30
1/2 of Middle of Vehicle Additional Weight (Rock Sliders, Skid plates, Water Jug): 75
Less Factory Equipment Removed: Original Bumper: -20


I spoke with Lovells about this and their suggestion was to replace the EHD with HD and put a spacer on top of the strut or move the spring perch up on the Bilstein's to achieve the desired lift but I don't want to increase the preload on the coils for fear of yet again, having a harsh ride or having alignment problems.

Does anyone have any ideas? Do any of you have Lovell's HD Springs in the Front with similar or greater weight on them than I do and have they sagged down as well?

Picture Here: https://www.instagram.com/p/B7oLeumHfZy/

Adjust the lower spring perch with the HDs.

Pre load will not negatively effect the ride on a linear rate spring unless the coils bind on full compression. 10mm pre load won't be an issue.

DON'T use strut top spacers if you value your CVs.

[nj swb]

I spoke with Lovells about this and their suggestion was to replace the EHD with HD and put a spacer on top of the strut or move the spring perch up on the Bilstein's to achieve the desired lift but I don't want to increase the preload on the coils for fear of yet again, having a harsh ride or having alignment problems.

These solutions from Lovells don't affect the load on the spring.

The load on the spring comes from the weight on the wheel. The weight is what causes the spring to compress. If the spring is compressing further, it has more weight (load). If the spring hasn't compressed as far, it has less weight (load).

Putting a spacer on top of the strut increases the load on the spring by the weight of the spacer. In the grand scheme of things, negligible. The compression of the spring remains the same, because the load remains the same.

Adjusting the spring perch doesn't increase the load on the spring, or the compression of the spring. It is increasing the amount of strut body below the bottom end of the spring - it doesn't affect the compressed length of the spring.

I went through the same issues that you're facing. Buy off the shelf springs rated for the load I'm carrying (steel bull bar, winch, second battery against the firewall) and I wasn't getting the lift I wanted. So I bought Dobinson monotubes, because they have an adjustable spring seat that allows the "settled" ride height to be set where I want it.

The alternative is to dive down the rabbit hole of custom made springs, specifying the loaded spring rate you want and the free length needed to achieve the loaded ride height you want. There is generally a small amount of trial and error required to "dial in" the final solution, and it's a little trickier with independent suspension adding a "multiplier" - a small change in compressed height of the spring has a larger change in ride height, about 2 to 1 for Pajero front ends.

[Nab]

I'm pretty sure EHD are only for diesels with steel bar and winch. I had them on my diesel NP with steel bar and steel bash plates (no winch) and they were pretty firm, not too uncomfortable though.

[SONICMASD]

Wow, this is very interesting, thank you guys.

Ok, so strut spacers are definitely a no go.

I guess I only have 3 more things to say then:

1. So if raising the spring perch does not increase preload, are there any negative effects to it at all? Does’t it make the ride firmer, all things being equal?

2. I reached out to Kings for a solution as well and they recommend their HD Diesel Springs for the front which are rated for the heavier Diesel engine +100kgs and they are progressive. What do you guys think of this option vs going with Lovells HD on the higher Bilstein perch?

3. Does anyone know the weight difference between the 3.2 Diesel and 3.8 V6 engine weights?

[dc80]

SONICMASD do you think the EHD up front accounts for the choppy ride in your comparo with the King Springs/Kings Coilovers in Jamie's Montero?

[SONICMASD]

Definitely. The front end is bouncing around like crazy because the springs are too heavy. With a properly rated front spring set I think it would have been better but still no where near as smooth as Jamie’s truck. Once I get the springs swapped out I’ll refilm the comparison video.

Here’s the link for those not familiar:

Full Video: https://youtu.be/O6jRfXXe0yU

Short side by side: https://youtu.be/z8idPIjeu3Y

[old Jack]

My comments below.

OJ.

Wow, this is very interesting, thank you guys.

Ok, so strut spacers are definitely a no go.
Fitting strut spacers between the top of the strut mount and the body will raise your ride height but not effect the spring rate. You need to be very careful doing this as you can cause the strut or coil to fully compress and bind before the suspension compression stop contacts and compresses, if this happens then you can expect to bend struts and break top and bottom strut mounts.
Fitting strut spacers between the top of the coil and the top strut cap/mount, will increase the ride height because you have increased the coil pre-load, but they do not change the coil spring rate. You need to also be very careful doing this as you can cause the strut or coil to fully compress and bind before the suspension compression stop contacts and compresses, if this happens then you can expect to bend struts and break top and bottom strut mounts.. Caution

I guess I only have 3 more things to say then:

1. So if raising the spring perch does not increase preload, are there any negative effects to it at all? Does’t it make the ride firmer, all things being equal?
Raising the spring perch has the same effect as fitting a spacer between the top of the coil and the top cap/mount.

2. I reached out to Kings for a solution as well and they recommend their HD Diesel Springs for the front which are rated for the heavier Diesel engine +100kgs and they are progressive. What do you guys think of this option vs going with Lovells HD on the higher Bilstein perch?
What part number coils have Kings recomended? I am not aware that they do a progressive rate front coil for the Gen3/4 Pajero.

3. Does anyone know the weight difference between the 3.2 Diesel and 3.8 V6 engine weights?

If you can weigh your front axle load on a weigh bridge and also measure from the centre of the wheel hub to under the wheel arch in a vertical line on all 4 wheels. Post, PM or email me results and I can look at what spring options are available.

[SONICMASD]

Thanks Jack,

I just heard from King again and as you suspected the front springs they recommended are not Progressive as I originally thought: KCFR-34HHD

I’ll get the wheel lift measurements for you soon. As for weighing the front axle, just pull the truck halfway onto the scale and that’s it?

[old Jack]

Thanks Jack,

I just heard from King again and as you suspected the front springs they recommended are not Progressive as I originally thought: KCFR-34HHD

I’ll get the wheel lift measurements for you soon. As for weighing the front axle, just pull the truck halfway onto the scale and that’s it?

Correct, drive on to the weigh bridge as far as possible before the rear wheel go on the weigh bridge.

OJ.

[SONICMASD]

Correct, drive on to the weigh bridge as far as possible before the rear wheel go on the weigh bridge.

OJ.

Hi Jack,

I have the info you requested:

Front Axle Weight: 2,610lbs (1,184kg) *I was not in the car during weighing so add another 65kg for me.

Rear Axle Weight: 2,760lbs (1,252kg) *The rear was unloaded. Expedition load will add 80kg to the rear. Camper will add another 181kg on the tongue but i’ve been happy with the Lovell HD in the rear for what it’s worth.

Gross Weight: 5,340lbs (2,422kg)

Front Lift: 57.5cm
Rear Lift: 55cm

Ideally sticking with Lovells (going to HD Fronts) and getting the front down to 50-55 seems like a good target but am totally open to any other brands and your ideas.

Thanks!

[old Jack]

Hi Jack,

I have the info you requested:

Front Axle Weight: 2,610lbs (1,184kg) *I was not in the car during weighing so add another 65kg for me.

Rear Axle Weight: 2,760lbs (1,252kg) *The rear was unloaded. Expedition load will add 80kg to the rear. Camper will add another 181kg on the tongue but i’ve been happy with the Lovell HD in the rear for what it’s worth.

Gross Weight: 5,340lbs (2,422kg)

Front Lift: 57.5cm
Rear Lift: 55cm

Ideally sticking with Lovells (going to HD Fronts) and getting the front down to 50-55 seems like a good target but am totally open to any other brands and your ideas.

Thanks!

Front suspension with Lovells EHD.
Front Axle Weight 1184kg.
Front ride height 575mm
At 575mm the front ride height is way too high, 70mm higher than empty factory specifications. You risk driveshaft damage and running out of droop travel so you will easily lift a front wheel on and off road and this can cause unwanted ABS, Traction Control and Stability Control activation. A sensible ride height to aim for is 530mm to 545mm. I do not have a lot of information about front coils but I would consider using King KCFR-34HD, theses are a step down from the HHD which forum member "Pajero 12" has fitted and I have weighed and measure his car, and it is 535mm with 1270kg front axle load.

Rear Suspension with Lovells ???
Rear Axle Weight 1250kg.
Rear ride height 550mm.
Travel loads of 80kg in rear cargo area +180kg of towball download,which will also transfer about 70kg of front axle weight onto the rear axle, this will also make the front ride height even higher and the total extra load is now 330kg ,+1/2 of the drivers 65kg weight is 32kg + half the font seat passengers weight +all the weight of rear seat passengers and the rear axle load is now 1620kg as a minimum.
At 550mm the rear ride heigh this only 15mm higher than empty factory specifications and in my opinion is way too low for the loads you are carrying. I do have all the spring specifications for rear coils from Lovells, Kings, ARB and Dobinson so I can provide more detailed information.

You do not specify which Lovells rear coils you have fitted, so here are the specifications and calculations for both.

CR-91 Free Length 355mm with a linear spring rate of 13.1792 kg/mm so this calculates to a ride height of 560mm with 1250kg and 475mm with 1620kg of rear axle load so my guess is these are the coils you have fitted. These coils will be way too light for your application. Your bottom coil insulators are most likely worn or even missing so this would reduce the calculated ride heights by about 10mm.

CR-91HD Free Length 345mm with a linear spring rate of 15.5186kg/mm so this calculates to a ride height of 574mm with 1250kg so this is at the max rear height but at 1620kg the ride height calculates to 525mm which is just ok, but youwill expeirnce fore and aft pitching when fully loaded.

A better option is using progressive rate coils as these are more comfortable when empty but carry greater weight and maintain more ride height when loaded up.

King KCRR-35HD Free Length 335/345mm with a progressive spring rate of 14.286 to 22.325 kg/mm so this will give a ride height of 570mm at 1250kg and 540mm at 1620kg. I know this because we have fitted these coils to "Pajero 12's" NW and we weighed rear axle loads and measured ride heights. This is the coil I would recommend fitting for your application.

Whilst you are changing coils I would strongly suggest you use PolyTuff Urethane lower coil insulators, these last much longer than any rubber insulators. Also check that the suspension adjustment bolts are not seized in the suspension bushes. Best to remove these at the same time as a coil change and polish and lubricate with anti-seize or grease. If they are seized then the bolts will need to be cut out and both the bushes and the bolts replaced.

OJ.

[SONICMASD]

Hi OJ,

Thanks so much for your detailed insight and help.

I actually have Lovells HD in the Rear with brand new OEM Mitsubishi pads/isolators top and bottom (though I will still look into the Urethane isolators recommended). I think the reason the lift is not what you would expect is because the EHD front is so oversprung that it is pushing the front up tremendously and thus pushing the rear down like a seesaw.

The funny thing is before I installed my winch a few weeks ago, the front height was even higher!

I do have some additional questions if that's ok:

1. I sent King the original added accessories weight (I didn't have the weight bridge info yet) and what's interesting is they recommended the Diesel Springs, the HHD Fronts. I believe this is because they say the HD Springs only go up to 100kg of additional weight whereas I believe I have 134kg of added weight on the front. They also said they expect these HHD springs will result in 30-40mm of lift. Any insight on this? I'm afraid to repeat the same mistake that if I go with HHD they will be too heavy but at the same time, I'm afraid to go against King's recommendation and end up with a spring that does not provide enough lift/sags.

2. If I go with the Lovell's HD Fronts (just because they're cheaper and would match the rears) - would you recommend installing them on the lower or higher spring perch of the Bilstein shocks? Same story as the Kings HD, they say they're good up to 100kg of extra weight.

3. Same question for the King HD Front Springs - lower or higher perch?

4. From reading literally every post on this forum regarding springs & shocks, it seems like 90% of members in Aus are running the Lovells/Bilstein combo and love them, why do you think they are so popular vs the Kings option which seem to have much more negative reviews regarding sag and much less adoption?

5. How would you rate Old Man Emu HD (2915) springs in comparison to the Lovells HD and King HD Front options? I only ask because I happen to have a brand new set of them that a friend gave me after he sold his Pajero and so if there is not a significant difference I could just throw them on for free. Here are their coil rate specs in case you don't have it: https://www.sierraexpeditions.com/in..._detail&p=1164


All the best,

SONICMASD

[old Jack]

Comments in Blue text below.

OJ.

Hi OJ,

Thanks so much for your detailed insight and help.

I actually have Lovells HD in the Rear with brand new OEM Mitsubishi pads/isolators top and bottom (though I will still look into the Urethane isolators recommended). I think the reason the lift is not what you would expect is because the EHD front is so oversprung that it is pushing the front up tremendously and thus pushing the rear down like a seesaw.
Front ride height will have an insignificant effect on rear ride height if the ride height has been measured from the centre of the wheel hub to the underside of the wheel arch in a vertical line. I can only do calculations based on manufacturers specifications and these are theoretical manufacturing specifications, the actual manufactured spring once it has been fully scragged tested can be up to 7% difference but in most cases they are +/- 3%.

The funny thing is before I installed my winch a few weeks ago, the front height was even higher!

I do have some additional questions if that's ok:

1. I sent King the original added accessories weight (I didn't have the weight bridge info yet) and what's interesting is they recommended the Diesel Springs, the HHD Fronts. I believe this is because they say the HD Springs only go up to 100kg of additional weight whereas I believe I have 134kg of added weight on the front. They also said they expect these HHD springs will result in 30-40mm of lift. Any insight on this? I'm afraid to repeat the same mistake that if I go with HHD they will be too heavy but at the same time, I'm afraid to go against King's recommendation and end up with a spring that does not provide enough lift/sags.
Kings supplied all the specifications I use and I have a complex formula that considers the geometry of the suspension, unsprung weight and the coil specifications, there are about 1200 cells in the calculator that I use. It is very accurate on linear rate coils but I have to assume the rate of progression on progressive rate coils in linear as the coil manufacturers do not have force vs compression graphs, they do not even do these test!
I am confident the King HHD will be too high for your application especially once you add your towball loads on and get weight transfered off the front axle. Also the fact that I done physical tests on the HHD so I know what the results are.

2. If I go with the Lovell's HD Fronts (just because they're cheaper and would match the rears) - would you recommend installing them on the lower or higher spring perch of the Bilstein shocks? Same story as the Kings HD, they say they're good up to 100kg of extra weight.
I cannot recall the difference between the upper and lower circlip groove on the Bilstein front struts but you need to consider that a 5mm change in the height of the lower spring perch results in a 10mm change in ride height.

3. Same question for the King HD Front Springs - lower or higher perch?
Same as above

4. From reading literally every post on this forum regarding springs & shocks, it seems like 90% of members in Aus are running the Lovells/Bilstein combo and love them, why do you think they are so popular vs the Kings option which seem to have much more negative reviews regarding sag and much less adoption?
Yes, historically the Bistein/Lovells combination has been the go to suspension upgrade for forum members, but this is based on peoples reports rather than actual hard data, when you look closely many people have also had several attempts at getting their suspension setups where they want them and many have also fitted airbags to compensate for rear coils that are undersized. It is impossible to get a linear rate coil that will give you a ride height variation of only 40 mm between unloaded and loaded weights when you are looking for a 400+kg weight difference with only 20mm to 25mm of spring compression. Even Progressive Rate coils struggle but they do get a lot closer than linear rate coils. On my Challenger it took 3 sets of front coils with 2 different brands of struts, and 5 sets of rear coils and 2 brands of shockers before I got my suspension to where it suited my requirements, this has taken a lot of time and money. The reason why I designed my calculator and have spent many hours of researching data, doing suspension changes on Gen3/4 Pajero's, Challengers and Pajero Sports and validating the calculations is so I could offer people some engineering evaluation and opinion on suspension choices.
All coils sag with use, but coils will sag much more and quicker if they are too lighter duty for the application. General most suspension upgrades tend to increase the front spring rates too much and the rear spring rates not enough, this is a carry over from the Mitsubishi suspension design criteria that seeks to get sharp on road handling from the front suspension and soft comfortable rear suspension, however this does not work when going off the bitumen on rough roads/tracks and carrying heavy rear loads.

5. How would you rate Old Man Emu HD (2915) springs in comparison to the Lovells HD and King HD Front options? I only ask because I happen to have a brand new set of them that a friend gave me after he sold his Pajero and so if there is not a significant difference I could just throw them on for free. Here are their coil rate specs in case you don't have it: https://www.sierraexpeditions.com/in..._detail&p=1164
Old Man Emu coils are made by Kings so the quality is the same and in many cases the specifications are the also the same.
2915 has a free length of 345mm and a spring rate of 650lbs/inch or 11.6077kg/mm and the factory coils are reported by ARB to have 580lbs/inch or 10.3576 kg/mm spring rates. ARB recomend these to 2007 onwards LWB Diesels with steel bar and winch and to 2000-2006 LWB V6 with 51-100kg of extra weight.

3109 has free length of 340mm and the same spring rates as the 2915 so it will carry the same weights but with a 10mm lower ride height. ARB also recommend these coils to fit 2007 onwards LWB Diesels with steel bar and winch.

If you can find out the free length and spring rateson the KCRR-34HD and HHD then I can put the figures into my calculator and see how they compare with the OME2915 and OME3109 coils.


All the best,

SONICMASD

[SONICMASD]

Thank you again, if you ever need any parts or help from the USA please don't hesitate to ask and I'll do my best to facilitate.


Honestly, I'm not really that concerned with the Rear because the Lovells HD have been good and if it sags too much when I tow a few times a year then Airbags can fix that. Also, how do you feel about a weight distribution hitch, that should help transfer some of the load off the rear springs too right?

My main thing is I want to be able to drive faster down corrugations and not feel like my front is so harsh and not have it act like a pogo stick on bigger ruts - while at the same time having 50mm of lift. OME HD vs King HD vs Lovells HD - tough decision.



PS - For a man as detailed into suspension as you are, have you heard of King Shocks Coilovers from the USA with Total Chaos Control Arms? They cost a pretty penny at about $4,500 USD installed and tuned but they are the sweetest things available for Pajero suspensions.

You can see how well they perform in that video I linked above.