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-   -   hydrogen fuel (https://www2.pajeroclub.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=2851)

zacc 29-06-08 07:52 PM

hydrogen fuel
 
i know but i just had to ask . has any one tried this idea ? seems awfull simple . i know that you could never run a car on the complete system but it would be interesting to use it as supplement. the only issue with a pajero is the big back fireing issue, but i do have a guinea pig to try it on . the replys will be very interesting. cheers:dunno[1]:

marquis 29-06-08 08:49 PM

I am thinking about a electric supp hydrogen generator cell for the DiD - you only need a small amount like LPG supp system. Thinking about it - going to have to interface with inig switch and RPM. The injection point after the turbo, with auto shutoff valve if the engine is running less than 1200rpm and switch on above 1400rpm - maybe use a LPG regulator system???. Unfortunately it's going to be pressurised system...

mr_grumble 30-06-08 02:42 PM

Some of the claims I've seen on the net regarding this system are very dubius at best. I have no doubt that a saving arount the 3-5% could be achieved, but the advertised figures of 40+% make me wary of such a technique.
Please prove me wrong ;)

green monster 03-08-08 07:31 PM

I have also seen the kits advertised on ebay boasting of huge fuel savings ,i had a look on 'wikipedia' and im not convinced that it would really make any noticable difference!
sorry but i dont have a link but its interesting reading if you have the time
cheers cam

pody 18-08-08 09:19 PM

The idea sounds great "whats the worst that could happen"?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...die/images.jpg

Ben D 03-09-08 08:31 PM

The hydrogen acts as a "combustion catalyst" - not in the true sense of a catalyst I suppose, but the hydrogen being such a light @*$#@*$#@*$#@*$#cule has a very high flame front speed so you get a fairly complete burn. Furthermore, the other component of browns gas is oxygen, a nice @*$#@*$#@*$#@*$#cule to have in any combustion engine. So for those who pooh pooh the idea of people getting huge fuel savings by using relatively small amounts of HHO gas, think again. Conventional combustion in emissions controlled petrol engines is not as efficient as you think, and diesels even less so.

Hydrogen also enhances the lean burn limit of petrol engines (don't take my word for it, read it from the SAE papers here) http://www.sae.org/technical/papers/2005-01-0251

So, if you can generate enough hydrogen to run a petrol engine signficantly leaner (say -17:1 or 18:1) than the usual 14.7: 1 stochiometric, and then have a method to cheat the ECU from closed loop so it doesn't attempt to add the fuel back in again, I do believe you could get at least 30% saving in your fuel bill. Heck, I got a real 20% fuel savings just leaning out an Nissan Stagea station wagon I had with a $75 jaycar digital fuel adjuster without adding HHO. Also, you can sometimes get savings in other areas too, like transmission ECUs locking up torque converters earlier due to you using less throttle in an LPG over diesel application (my experience anyway).

I am currently getting at least 30% savings in my 2002 DID auto with a LPG over diesel setup I made myself (fully programmable EFI with LPG Gas, 1100 km from a single tank of diesel, he he), but the beauty of hydrogen is that you don't have to pay for the "fuel" (water) . On the other hand, the government doesn't give you $2000 to add hydrogen to your car.....

shado2 06-03-09 06:02 PM

can we see the pictures please
 
ben d i would like to see some pics of this not that i am a doubting thomas but i have been interest in this for some time .
thanks richard

nj swb 06-03-09 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shado2 (Post 39035)
ben d i would like to see some pics of this not that i am a doubting thomas but i have been interest in this for some time .
thanks richard

I'm a doubting thomas. LPG over diesel is achieving enhanced combustion efficiency by adding a second fuel from an external source. Billions of dollars of research, and masses of regulations cover the performance characteristics of the LPG - it is, effectively, a well understood constant for which an engine can be tuned.

To imply that LPG injection is somehow comparable to on-board HHO generation is ridiculous. Referring to a published paper discussing H2/CO/N2 (more comparable to LPG injection than HHO generation & combustion) also illustrates a lack of understanding of the principles of energy transfer.

Fundamentally, HHO systems want to use energy from the engine to separate water into hydrogen and oxygen, then claim benefits from the combustion. This is the significant difference. It is impossible to recover more energy from turning H2 and O2 into water than is required to split water in the first place. Burning LPG releases energy. Burning hydrogen (which was filtered/refined/cracked elsewhere) releases energy. Burning HHO cannot release more energy than was used to generate the gas in the first place.

There may be some minor "symbiotic" benefits to be obtained by having both combustion processes occurring in the cylinder together. Marginally smoother idle and barely measureable improvements in economy. But a 30% reduction? Don't believe the conspiracy theorists - it's not being suppressed by Big Oil. There is no credible evidence that this works simply because it doesn't really work. Most reported "economy" gains are purely because the "inventor" gave the car a good service and tune, and started to drive for economy.

I can save 3 litres per hundred km simply by NOT driving like a hoon. Perhaps I should sell my right foot on ebay?

Ben D 07-03-09 12:30 AM

For doubting thomases, may I suggest another comparison ? How does nitrous oxide improve performance in an internal combustion engine ? Is it not the addition of additional oxygen to the combustion chamber then burning it that adds the power ? Don't HHO systems combine induction of an additional gaseous fuel (hydrogen), with additional oxygen ? What would this do if you can induct enough of both into an internal combustion engine ?

No one is saying the laws of physics are being bent using hydrogen/oxygen - yes additional power is used up to drive the alternator harder, but given the combustion improvements, clearly the addition of both hydrogen and oxygen has the potential to overcome the loss to the alternator to provide net positive increases in power to the crank. And that means you need less throttle to keep a similar speed. Sure , you can simply use less throttle and also get fuel savings, but this is also not a valid comparison as you'll be accelerating slower, etc.

I have not run a hydrogen system myself, but know some people who are playing with it. Once they develop a system which generates enough hydroxy gas, I'll explore how to control it. In the meantime I'll play with the LPG - which is still working very well - doesn't look much, just a regulator and a homemade fuel rail and a computer box in the glovebox to drive the injectors, but I note a similar sort of system just won viewers choice on new inventors (how much was really new though ?) . Will post a pic soon

Mr C 07-03-09 10:23 AM

Really interesting topic guys, one that I have been looking at for some time. There are 2 camps in this........the does, and the donts. Either camp cannot completely prove their position./... as l see it, the only way it to do it and see if it works.
zacc, good on you for wanting to try it. I would like to partner you in this so if there is any way I can help you with your project let me know.
Anyone else............anyone? :beer[1]:

Nig:nana[1]:


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