05 NP A/T issues........

[chris]

Hi,

had a few issues with my 05NP paj A/T, pretty much since new...... the dealer won't fix it... doesn't seem to think there are any issues at all

so... wanted a few opinions from here... issues are:
1. at about 20,000km, the trans got a really bad whine. Only happened on slight uphill, 100km/h, low throttle input... (service people road tested to 60, couldn't find it - surprisingly, because I told them it happened at 100!!). The noise stopped approx 20,000km later.
2. fuel econ has got significantly worse. At new, was about 9.5l/100km, now is up around 13....
3. there is a trans leak..... (well, when I tow, I get trans fluid sprayed over whatever I'm towing)...... They "couldn't find any leak" last time I took it in... every time I look, there's wet oil.

Now, my suspicion is transmission overheating.... possibly lockup clutch not working properly, slipping and causing oil to overheat? This would explain all 3 issues above. My only problem is Mitsi service people do not care! last time I took it in there, they didn't even replace the brake pads, let alone check the trans!

any suggestions on what it could be?
Anyone know what the temp specs on the trans fluid are? what is the usual max temp?

thanks......

[psproule]

Point 3 does sound like severe overheat - possibly as you say due to lack of lockup. The fluid eventually can boil and come out the breather. High fuel consumption could also be due to lack of lockup. Can you hear it engage? Revs should drop slightly.

Have they hooked up their diagnostics at all and taken it for a drive? The Mutt can give a lot of live data and I would imagine that would include trans lockup. I would suggest starting with another dealer if possible.

[marquis]

Sounds like your ATF is overheating.

Point 1 - You can obtain a whine if your ATF is to low or over heated.
Point 2 - 13L/100km is typically torque converter not locking up and/or crook fuel pump/supply
Point 3 - As psproule sad - overheating of ATF it will come out of the breather.

Pull out the automatic transmission dip stick to check:
- the ATF level (refer to glovebox manual on procedure to check level)
- the colour of the oil should be a nice light red colour (near clear on the dip stick) wipe it on your fingers (cold) and check slowly pull your finger apart - the oil tension should be good (ie the oil tension should cause the oil to connect your fingers for about 1-2mm as you part your fingers)
- the smell should not be burnt

a/ If either of these are not right you have ATF issues (and more severe cases the torque converter or sensors or valve/seals may be a little damaged)

b/ You said it stopped at approx 40,000km - was that after the ATF was changed?

c/ Do you think the firewall near your left foot is very hot alot of the time?

d/ Does your torque converter lock up?
5th DiD Auto - 100kph = 1900RPM (approx)
4th DiD Auto - 100kph = 2600RPM (approx)


e/ If towing have your being using 4th (not 5th)?

f/ Do you have oversized tyres on?

[gaz1]

Chris

Has the vehicle been assessed by more than one dealer, or has it all been from the same one?

Gaz

[chris]

Sounds like your ATF is overheating.

Point 1 - You can obtain a whine if your ATF is to low or over heated.
Point 2 - 13L/100km is typically torque converter not locking up and/or crook fuel pump/supply
Point 3 - As psproule sad - overheating of ATF it will come out of the breather.

Pull out the automatic transmission dip stick to check:
- the ATF level (refer to glovebox manual on procedure to check level)
- the colour of the oil should be a nice light red colour (near clear on the dip stick) wipe it on your fingers (cold) and check slowly pull your finger apart - the oil tension should be good (ie the oil tension should cause the oil to connect your fingers for about 1-2mm as you part your fingers)
- the smell should not be burnt

a/ If either of these are not right you have ATF issues (and more severe cases the torque converter or sensors or valve/seals may be a little damaged)

b/ You said it stopped at approx 40,000km - was that after the ATF was changed?

c/ Do you think the firewall near your left foot is very hot alot of the time?

d/ Does your torque converter lock up?
5th DiD Auto - 100kph = 1900RPM (approx)
4th DiD Auto - 100kph = 2600RPM (approx)


e/ If towing have your being using 4th (not 5th)?

f/ Do you have oversized tyres on?

Thanks for the replies so far....

@ Marquis,

a) I will have a look at the oil tomorrow... The engine overheated (well, to the point where the aircon cut out) about 6 months after I bought the car when I was towing, so I specifically asked them to check oil condition when they changed it, but when I came back, they couldn't really tell me... obviously hadn't really even looked!

b).... um, not sure... would've been around that time I guess... (I think they changed oil @ 45,000km.....)... to tell the truth, it happened very rarely (like I said, only on slight uphills, 100km/h, slight throttle input), but when it happened, you knew! I had 3 people in the car the first time, and they all asked what the noise was, and said how annoying it was..

c) the firewall is almost always hot, especially when towing. For long distance towing, it gets to the point where I have to move my foot, so it is not touching... I can't hold my foot against it....

d) not sure, but I think when I tow it is around 2200-2400 (5th gear at 100km/h).

e) I normally use 5th, simply to save fuel (with crap fuel economy like mine, you need to Am I asupposed to be using 4th (nobody's ever mentioned that before!....

f) standard size, bridgestone duelers (693's?)

They refused to even look into overheating... said if it was, the light would've come on....

thanks

[marquis]

Obviously the torque convertor is not locked - which means your burning your ATF. I bet that if the oil is been in there for a while it's burnt (smells burnt and may look brown;ish or even like used engine oil)

Replace ATF and Auto filter immediately with a synthenic (Amsol?) if you can (see over posts here on oil types for the MM ATF, Amsol, Castrol).

If towing use 4th unless it is willing to lock in 5th.

If not towing and not locking in 5th, you have a problem with your auto - most likely you have damaged the torque converter system or valves or control springs (to much heat).

[marquis]

Also if your running in 4th alot - your engine oil will not last as long.

Therefore you will need to run a good quality oil to obtain the normal 7500km service interval.

ie
Delo 400 Multigrade lasts over 10,000km with a normal pajero, if used in 4th you will only get 8,000km before the engine starts to get real noisy. Helix(?) lasts about 6,500km - 7,000km and Castrol GTX3 is about 5,500km-6,000km (I know because these are oils MM dealers used in my vehicle prior to me getting the sh*ts with them for not servicing the vehicle properly)

If running in 4th at 110kmh on a regular basis (3,000rpm) Delo 400 lasts about 7,000km

[chris]

surely I should not have to worry about these issues though?
I shouldn't have to worry about putting special oils etc in...the car should be designed to take it, shouldn't it??
If it cannot handle towing, then it is a design problem with the car. If they sell it to me with a 2500kg towbar on it, and it cannot handle towing 1.5T without special oils, then quite frankly, I'm not sure I want the car!

The manual says nothing about towing in 4th... has a whole heap of basic explanations on how to tow, but does not go into detail on gears to use etc

Also, if I go putting non-genuine oils in, surely I'm voiding the warranty?

At the moment, my thoughts are if they won't fix it when I give them specific details, then I just have to drive it until it dies, then they can replace the trans under warranty.... obviously not ideal for anyone, however maybe they will get the idea!

anyways, I'll have a look at the oil, and let you know.....

Cheers

[marquis]

You can use the standard engine oil that MM use - but you will be reducing the life of the engine - engine 101 - it applies to any vehicle not just the Pajero!!.

Driving in 5th instead of 4th is just simply you have not had any training or instructions on 'what to do' - again - it applies to any vehicle not just the Pajero!!

They will be able to tell that you have damaged your auto - if you continue your methods and are like not to warrant the transmission.

Saying that - I would not be surprised the vehicle can do 130,000km+ with your driving style...

[4wd26]

Thanks for the replies so far....

They refused to even look into overheating... said if it was, the light would've come on....

thanks

a/ If either of these are not right you have ATF issues (and more severe cases the torque converter or sensors or valve/seals may be a little damaged)

I would sugest that the problem has caused the sensors to stop working therefore stop the warning light.

How many kms are on the vehicle now?

How long has the trans tunnel been too hot for?
Is it hot during general driving or just towing?

There were a few warning signs here, I hope the answers from the forum give you the confidence to check and confirm to yourself the problem and then get it rectified by the service centre.

Cheers

[zacc]

if the lights come on before starting the paj all is fine with the sensors. i do not run any fan dangled oil i use what is recomended. if you go running any thing else in the paj other than what they recomend they will not cover it under warranty simple as that. try helping the guy , not scare the !@#$# out of him. cheers

[Errol]

I tow a 21ft. van and was advised by Mitsubishi to tow in 4th gear. I use 5th down hills and on the flats but as soon as the revs go up its back to 4th. I am getting better fuel consumption this way and I usually travel at around 100kph.

[chris]

Zacc,

that's what I figured... sure, if I put the "recommended" oil in, I am reducing engine life... on the other hand, if I put "special" oil in, and there is an engine failure, they will not warranty it.... quite frankly, I'd prefer to have my warranty valid... .and I know, a lot of you will say "they can't do that, blah, blah", but they do.....

the trans temp light comes on when I start the car (checked it today). I also took some temp readings on the car.... the oil temp coming out of the trans peaked at around 136.5.... not sure if this is normal or not.

4WD26,
the car has done about 64,000km now, and the trans tunnel has been hot since day 1 (normally during long distance driving, or when towing).
I know there were warning signs, that's why I raised the issue early on with Mitsubishi...45,000km ago! trust me, if they find something wrong with it now, I'll be asking for a full report on anything which could possibly have been damaged, and they can replace it then. It's not my reponsibility to find the cause... if I report it, they should fix it!

Marquis, not sure what you mean by "methods".... I change into 4th if the car starts struggling while towing.. .normally just leave it in D when highway cruising while towing though....Given that I've been asking for them to look into it for 45,000km, and they haven't mentioned driving in 4th, I really think they'd struggle to not cover it by warranty! Also, that and the lack of mention about it in the manual. Legally, they wouldn't have a leg to stand on.
I would bet a whole lot of people tow in "D", and if they're going to write in the manual about how to connect the chains on the trailer (which they have), and driving in "4" is so important, why is it not in there!

Sorry, but honeslty, almost everyone I know that tows tows in "D", and changes gears when required (ie if the car starts struggling, or going downhill etc).

[marquis]

Chris,

I originally had the vehicle serviced by MM.

I have receipts that say "GTX3" "Helix" and "Visco"

Are you saying these oils are MM oils? I don't think so.

Delo 400 Multi, Mobil Devac 1 (?) are "better" quality oils compared to the others above - there not special.

I have a email from MM stating: "So long as the oil meets the specification in the car handbook - "CD or higher" it is fine" - they cannot refuse to use your oil if you provide it.

I have had bbq's with the bloke who use to write the "oils aint oils" column, he mixed his own oils (engine,diff,trans) at normally achieved 20% better fuel enom compared to dealer supplied oils.

You have to remember MM service depot buys oil in bulk - usually one of the oils mentioned above - they don't use "MM" branded fluids. Gees I have even had them tell me - "go to castrol and buy x - it's what we use".


Sorry if it scared you or sound abusive - it's a bad habit I have...

[chris]

no probs marquis,

I'm just a bit pissed at MM, because they will not do anything about it. I know how much damage you can save by fixing car issues as soon as you pick them up, which is why I reported these issues to MM as soon as I picked them up. I've let them use their oils, and their methods, so they can't blame different oils etc, but they still don't seem to care. The last time I took it in, I asked them specifically to change the brake pads (squealing was horrific). 8 hours later, I pick the car up, and the service sheet says :brake pads worn, need replacing! It's just crap.... sorry for having a rant, but it's no wonder people turned off Mitsi's. I used to work at MM, and I think this!!

I've bcome that frustrated with it, that I'm starting to think I'll just let it die, and they can fork out for the warranty.....

referring to one of your earlier comments, what does the hot firewall near the left foot mean??

cheers,