DID on LPG

[muzzy]

intersting topic, I just purchased a np pajero diesel that I mite get this fitted.

for the guys that have fitted the system what brand did you fit ?

and where does the 25l tank get fitted to ? I dont whant to lose the seats in the back..

cheers.
Muz

[rotare]

Hi Muzzy,

Mine is a D-Gas system. The tank (its a 32 litre tank, of which 25 litres is usable) fits in the seat well where the rear seats would fold into. This means that unless you have these seats in position they will need to be stored elsewhere. No dramas for me as we rarely use the extra rear seating anyways.

Since my post on 17th August last year, I've clocked up 25,000km with gas - no issues whatsover. In fact I am regularly achieving 910 - 920km of city driving with 82 litres of diesel and 23 litres of gas. Prior to using LPG I was achieving 700 - 720km, travelling the same route, day in day out.

So in simple terms, 23 - 25 litres of gas @ $0.63 ($15.75) gives me 200km.

To do the same kms with diesel, based on a economy of 11.4L / 100km.
11.4 x 2 x $1.20/L = $27.36.

Roughly a saving of $10 everytime I fill up (if I was using just diesel), but I now get more range (900km between fills and thats city driving), plus 25% more power and torque. Car also is quieter and smoother.

If I tow my boat (21Ft - 2+ Tonnes) I use a lot more gas and find that the LPG will run out before the diesel does. This is because the LPG is metered according to boost pressure, and obviously towing the boat the car is under boost more often. Would be nice to have a bigger LPG tank for those occasions, but apart from that I haven't found a downside with using LPG.

[linc]

I was gonna say, thats a pretty small tank.
Why can they fit a 65L tank in my NP (pet) but only a 32L one in your DiD?
Seems odd....

[rotare]

I was gonna say, thats a pretty small tank.
Why can they fit a 65L tank in my NP (pet) but only a 32L one in your DiD?
Seems odd....

They can fit a bigger tank, but it means cutting out the bottom of the rear seat well. The other option is removing the centre muffler, re-routing the exhaust and fitting the tank in the location where the muffler was.

I guess placing a small tank in the rear seat well is the most straight forward and cost effective method, considering that the majority of time the LPG will run out proportionally with the diesel, so in most cases a 32L tank will suffice.

[explorer2203]

I just dont see the point. More weight for starters. More issues with filling the thing up. Possible warranty issues. A gas tank under the vehicle...for what? a 10% gain? How long will it take to recoup the costs?

I jumped out of a petrol V8 4x4 that has a fantastic motor. I am not noticing any real difference in performance. The Pajero has more torque than the V8 but less kw's. 441nm torque v 368nm and 150kw v 178kw.

The V8 had to be wound out a bit to get the power...but had plenty of torque once you spun it up too. But the Pajero has more low down power and once over 1500rpm, with the turbo working nicely, it has loads of power.

I think a DP chip would be a wiser investment if you really have to spend more $ on the vehicle.

Just my 2 cents worth

[rotare]

I just dont see the point. More weight for starters. More issues with filling the thing up. Possible warranty issues. A gas tank under the vehicle...for what? a 10% gain? How long will it take to recoup the costs?

Hi explorer2203,

Not sure what part you don't get, and my repsonse is in no way trying to convince you that it's a great product. It's not for everyone, like any mod on any vehicle, but I'll try and clarify your comments for others who may be interested.

More weight for starters

- the weight is minimal as the tank is no bigger than a scuba tank. Any weight gains are offset by the removal of the rear seats anyway.

More issues with filling the thing up

- what issues are you specifically talking about? At my local servo I can fill the diesel and LPG at the same time as the bowsers are located next to one another. I'd suggest this is a common arrangement at a lot of servos. If that's not the case, because of the small LPG tank it takes all of 1min and 3 seconds to fill up with LPG. Because I now have more range, I fill up every 3 weeks instead of every 2 weeks. So a couple of extra minutes at the servo, once every 3 weeks means I reduce the number of fill ups per year from 26 to 18. I know what I'd rather do.....

Possible warranty issues

- any non factory modification could result in warranty issues. LPG injection in diesel engines has been used commericially in vehicles and stationary engines for decades. It's not new. Prior to having the D-gas system installed I did a lot of research and couldn't find any solid proof that engines where blowing to pieces or dying after 10,000km because of LPG. I've done 25,000km with LPG and haven't had any issues. There are plenty of internet warrior "stories" of LPG / diesel failures, but like a lot of stuff you read on the net, it just that, a story. No facts, evidence just heresay. Did you know that one of Rudolf Diesels original patents for the diesel engine incorporated the use of a flammable gas to improve the combustion process?

A gas tank under the vehicle...for what?

- the gas tank is located in the seat well where the 6th and 7th seat would normally reside, not underneath the car.

a 10% gain?

- I'm not sure what your 10% is referring to??? Power and torque is up by around 25%, linearly, from 1500rpm. My range, for city driving has increased from approximately 700km to 900km, so lets call it up 25%. For the same distance travelled with LPG, and depending on the difference of price between the two fuels, I save around $10 everytime I fill up. The stuff coming out my exhaust pipe is still a pollutant, but because of the improved burn of diesel has less harmful emissions. Did I also mention that the engine has less diesel rattles with LPG and is smoother to drive?

How long will it take to recoup the costs?

In very simple terms:

My system cost me $1300, after the govt rebate.

Every time I fill up I save approximately $10, and now do approximately 18 fills a year roughly based on the number of kms I average on a normal week. It's likely to be more, but lets keep it simple.

So 18 fills x $10 saving per fill = $180 / year

The unit cost $1300 / $180 saving = 7.22 years

So a payback period wouldn't be out of the question for me... if I brought it for that only! How many people installing chips in their vehicles are doing it because they are hoping it will pay itself off through reduced fuel consumption...? In fact, who buys any mod for their cars with the explicit intention it will pay itself off? Remembering, while I'm using LPG I'm enjoying 25% more power and torque whilst reducing my impact on the environment. When it comes time to sell the Pajero, I bet the LPG injection will be a selling point, making the vehicle easier to sell a possibly generating a greater selling price.

But hey explorer2203, if you still can't see the benefit of LPG injection, or can't understand why people would want more power out of the Pajero.... that's your perogative. Just never drive my Pajero as I'll guarantee you will never want to give the keys back!

Originally Posted by rotare

Hi explorer2203,

Not sure what part you don't get, and my repsonse is in no way trying to convince you that it's a great product. It's not for everyone, like any mod on any vehicle, but I'll try and clarify your comments for others who may be interested.

- the weight is minimal as the tank is no bigger than a scuba tank. Any weight gains are offset by the removal of the rear seats anyway.

- what issues are you specifically talking about? At my local servo I can fill the diesel and LPG at the same time as the bowsers are located next to one another. I'd suggest this is a common arrangement at a lot of servos. If that's not the case, because of the small LPG tank it takes all of 1min and 3 seconds to fill up with LPG. Because I now have more range, I fill up every 3 weeks instead of every 2 weeks. So a couple of extra minutes at the servo, once every 3 weeks means I reduce the number of fill ups per year from 26 to 18. I know what I'd rather do.....

- any non factory modification could result in warranty issues. LPG injection in diesel engines has been used commericially in vehicles and stationary engines for decades. It's not new. Prior to having the D-gas system installed I did a lot of research and couldn't find any solid proof that engines where blowing to pieces or dying after 10,000km because of LPG. I've done 25,000km with LPG and haven't had any issues. There are plenty of internet warrior "stories" of LPG / diesel failures, but like a lot of stuff you read on the net, it just that, a story. No facts, evidence just heresay. Did you know that one of Rudolf Diesels original patents for the diesel engine incorporated the use of a flammable gas to improve the combustion process?

- the gas tank is located in the seat well where the 6th and 7th seat would normally reside, not underneath the car.

- I'm not sure what your 10% is referring to??? Power and torque is up by around 25%, linearly, from 1500rpm. My range, for city driving has increased from approximately 700km to 900km, so lets call it up 25%. For the same distance travelled with LPG, and depending on the difference of price between the two fuels, I save around $10 everytime I fill up. The stuff coming out my exhaust pipe is still a pollutant, but because of the improved burn of diesel has less harmful emissions. Did I also mention that the engine has less diesel rattles with LPG and is smoother to drive?



In very simple terms:

My system cost me $1300, after the govt rebate.

Every time I fill up I save approximately $10, and now do approximately 18 fills a year roughly based on the number of kms I average on a normal week. It's likely to be more, but lets keep it simple.

So 18 fills x $10 saving per fill = $180 / year

The unit cost $1300 / $180 saving = 7.22 years

So a payback period wouldn't be out of the question for me... if I brought it for that only! How many people installing chips in their vehicles are doing it because they are hoping it will pay itself off through reduced fuel consumption...? In fact, who buys any mod for their cars with the explicit intention it will pay itself off? Remembering, while I'm using LPG I'm enjoying 25% more power and torque whilst reducing my impact on the environment. When it comes time to sell the Pajero, I bet the LPG injection will be a selling point, making the vehicle easier to sell a possibly generating a greater selling price.

But hey explorer2203, if you still can't see the benefit of LPG injection, or can't understand why people would want more power out of the Pajero.... that's your perogative. Just never drive my Pajero as I'll guarantee you will never want to give the keys back!

Thats a bloody good explaination! I think it should be added that most of the chips on the market with maybe the exception of Stienbuer trick the sytem into thinking the engine is running cold and push more fuel into the motor. That just doesnt sound good to me. The gas system gains power through dramatically increasing combustion efficeincy. Most people I know have had more power gains from gas then any other add on. It also seems to get even better gains from combining it with a bigger exhaust. I still want to know if it will work on an nt?

[rotare]

Most people I know have had more power gains from gas then any other add on. It also seems to get even better gains from combining it with a bigger exhaust. I still want to know if it will work on an nt?

Even with your upgraded exhaust, still expect a 20-25% improvement in power and torque. The increased power is a result of what's happening inside the combustion chamber, not the exhaust.

I can't see why it wouldn't work on a NT. All your doing is adding a very small amount of LPG into the engine, either before or after the turbo, depending on which system you go for.

Originally Posted by rotare

Even with your upgraded exhaust, still expect a 20-25% improvement in power and torque. The increased power is a result of what's happening inside the combustion chamber, not the exhaust.

I can't see why it wouldn't work on a NT. All your doing is adding a very small amount of LPG into the engine, either before or after the turbo, depending on which system you go for.

Im hoping it would work on the NT. It would seem it was an issue with the NS which was fitted with the DPF. The NT shouldn't have that problem. I guess I could ask some of the companies fitting them if they have done any? It just makes so much sence to me to increase your economy and therefore range, then to simply increase diesel capacity ie long range tanks. And run into exhaust issues and increase weight, which decreases your economy further. The weight gain then increases your need for suspension mods....the list goes on lol!

[rotare]

I'm regularly getting 900km around the city. I've only done one long trip on open roads (Adelaide to Port Lincoln), with the car full of luggage, roof racks full, 3 bikes hanging off the tow bar plus 4 passengers..... did 750kms and the diesel fuel gauge was on half (or just above), can't remember how much LPG it used, but there still was heaps left. I find my fuel gauge is not linear in operation (ie, 1/2 a tank is really not half a tank) but I still reckon you would get well over 1000km out of 82 litres of diesel & 25 litres of LPG.

Considering what I was carrying and the weight of the vehicle, I think this would be a pretty good result!